2017 seems so long ago, now .....

[Xenia]

Continuation of our previous thread.

I've never been to Lincoln, and only visited the Wirral for my aunts funeral, so I do not have much to contribute.

DD is home for the next two months for her elective, after visiting her brother in the US. A friend of hers, who is also doing an elective, will be staying, which will be fun. The friend is from somewhere very rural and has not spent much time in London so a chance for DD to show off her home town. Then DS will be back, again with a coursemate, this time from Latin America, in tow. We are turning into the Central London sleep hostel.

DD is fast learning to ignore the various NHS hurdles. She has very very poor processing speeds so is hopeless at timed tests. She has had some strong feedback for placements, as she genuinely finds medicine interesting, gets on with patients, has a good memory and after an internship in a cookery school during her gap year, is able to bring in home baked brownies for colleagues. But this counts for nothing. Most hangs on the situational judgement speed test. (The obsession with timed multi-choice tests as a way of evaluating medical students is frustrating. If DD were applying now, it is highly unlikely that she, or several of her friends, would get places. They certainly would not at Bristol who have gone from not requiring UCAT at all, to demanding incredibly high scores. Yet the ones we know will make super doctors.)

She has more or less decided to follow friends to an unpopular deanery and hope this gives her a good chance to get the training she wants. The other option, inevitably, is to look to utilise her engineering degree, as she is already getting approaches from recruiters. Lets see. She knows that there is a shortage in the field she wants to go into in London at Registrar/Consultant level. The question is whether the system allows her to get there.

I agree about going into the office. Even DH is getting weary of being at home. His office were good at prioritising younger employees, even when numbers were very limited, and a lot took up the offer. He is also concerned that because of reorganisations etc, there are only three in the team that he knows from pre-lockdown days, so to a large extent he is working with people he has never met face to face. Rising heating bills are another incentive. I am old enough to remember the days before central heating, and we were already pretty miserly for environmental reasons, but it will be a shock for some.

Good luck to your dd on the house hunting @RedHelenB . Hopefully as a dentist she'll make the ideal tenant to potential landlords, with a regular income and good hygiene standards!

@readsalotgirl63 - the graduation sounds lovely and also that first pay packet is a once in a lifetime special occasion! DS1 blew his entire first month's salary on a new guitar and in the last 10 minutes has just had to blow most of his final pay packet (he's handed in his notice to start med school) on a new phone. His current phone apparently just jumped off the bathroom sink and smashed on the floor.

@Needmoresleep your dd sounds like she has a sensible plan for her choice of deanery. Several of ds's friends did the same as her - chose a slightly less popular deanery and have now ended up in places with great experience and opportunities. It looks like ds will be doing the same as he's just received his ranking which is well below where he expected to be. After coming in the top third for the relevant exams, his ranking has brought him out below average (to do with the covid cohort's online exam scores being treated equally with in person exams). Nobody is accusing anyone of cheating but the online exams were a different ball game, yet raw scores are being treated as like for like. It's probably scuppered his London dreams and he's feeling a bit disillusioned with the whole thing right now.

Talking of cathedrals, I was at Edinburgh festival with my choir the other week. We sang in St Giles cathedral where my grandmother got married in 1928 - proper Downton style photos of the event remain. A lot of fun was had by the choir and the singing carried on until late at night in the bars of Ed!

Haff, I am so sorry. DD had to sit exams in person as the WiFi in her top floor flat was wretched. Then bizarrely they give them all loads of time. Apparently to ensure equality between those who qualified for extra time and those who did not. She thinks she would have been better off being under pressure and having to go with her first, instinctive answer. Instead, on the first paper she had the time to change several of her answers. She did better on the second where she decided to simply put down her pen when she was finished and not revisit anything. Most people did the exam online, and if so inclined, would have had time to look things up.

It is a very strange system. But not dissimilar to applying to med school. DD effectively decided that she was good enough and if the system did not allow her a place, that was their loss and her fall back would be to access the same career via engineering. The same applies now. She has done really well on placements, knows her stuff, and has quite a lot extra to her name: a challenging intercalation, spoken at a couple of conferences, and something published. If the system decides that SJT is the key decider and this rules her out of doing what she wants, she will need to rethink.

She is not too bothered about F1/F2 in London though a doctor friend yesterday warned DD should be careful as the Trust she is considering is notoriously underfunded. The key though is whether, if she does her F1/F2 elsewhere she will be at a disadvantage when applying for specialist training.

Who knows. It is almost as if the NHS is doing their best to ensure they are demotivated right at the start of their careers. Or that they want to prioritise those that focus on playing the game and collecting the points.

That said one of her friends last year did not do that well in her finals but played a blinder on her SJT which qualified her for a London place. Whilst a Consultant friend, who did his training in one of the very competitive deaneries, claims that colleagues elsewhere tend to be nicer and more collegiate.

It is so tough.

@Needmoresleep, DS has had to do (and continues to do many situational judgements for internship applications. They are quite tricky, but he definitely feels more confident with practice. I imagine different types of situation in medicine. Everything has become so bloody competitive, but I’m sure your DD will get into what she wants to do - she sounds very tenacious.

@Haffdonga, so sorry to hear that for your DS (I know mine knew people who were definitely cheating in online exams) - I hope he can stay resilient and not give up hope. There is usually more than one path to follow your dreams.

BTM, it does seem to be that practice helps, and some students apparently really prioritise SJT practice and put a lot of work in, in some cases skipping things that don't count like placements. DD does not expect to do that well; as a dyslexic with slow processing speeds this sort of test does not play to her strengths. She is also unsure whether spending large amounts of time practicing isosteric skills for a test is the best use of her time. She was happy to revise hard for her finals and to turn up to placements on time and put in the required amount of effort, but spending her summer learning for a test for its own sake is a step too far. We knew someone who practiced for the UCAT entrance test for an hour every day for six months and came out in the top 2% nationally, but then went on to fail some of his first year exams. DD was content to get her place despite a pretty poor UCAT result and to have had the time to sit a useful fifth A level, be involved in county level sport, to have held a couple of school leadership positions and to have done some interesting volunteering.

The system is very odd, seemingly prioritising ED&I perhaps at the risk of alienating those who will good committed doctors, but who now may not be able to access the opportunities they need. The frustration is that a fair number, including those who ace these sorts of tests, will not want to practice. By final year students have a fair idea who wants out, or perhaps who never wanted in. (Family pressure is not uncommon.) And who, on group projects, is willing to pull their weight, and who will probably enter a work environment without the necessary team working skills.

But there is always another way. DS failed the initial on line test for his dream career so did not even get as far as the second stage zoom interview, despite having a distinction in a very relevant and well thought of Masters. However at the same time he ended up on the reserve list for the US equivalent. (Which pays a lot more!) Once he has his PhD he can be pretty confident of landing a job in the US, whereas in the UK he will probably need to ensure he knows the right answers for the SJ type test in order to have any chance. My ranting is probably more about the fact that they will both probably get to do what they want to do, but they may have to go abroad to achieve their ambitions.

Thanks for the kind thoughts for ds @bigTillyMint and @Needmoresleep DS is resilient and it will all seem a small blip in the course of a long career (hopefully!) .
He's been careful not to mention cheating but the fact remains that the year group who took one of their most important exams online scored significantly higher raw scores overall than ds's year did pre-covid. Then having taken a year out to intercalate his scores are now being ranked alongside theirs like for like. Apparently the suspiciously high online scores are explained by the fact they had nothing to do except revise during lockdown - perhaps true and goodness knows that cohort had other disadvantages so there's really no fair answer. Ah well, nobody said it would be easy or fair !

My DS dod well in his med exams and average in his SJT and did not get his choice of a London Deanery. His best friend aced his and is in London now . They were amused by this , my DS is sensible and in real life has actually even better situational judgement ( his friend can't even drive ) and they recognise one of them is just good at these kind of tests.
My DS is thriving in Manchester, he's been Ill recently and they've been so kind to him. The teaching is great and the hospital is very collegiate, Mesa balls and socials very well attended

Hope your ds gets a deanery he's happy with @haffdonga. Some of dds friends scored insanely high on the dental one, dd was about top half I think and got her third choice. It's only for a year though.

My Dd did get a London deanery but she definitely squeaked in & was very lucky.

However she is now battling the nightmare of London accommodation shortages. Decided to renew the lease if the flat they had for F1 year as it was still doable for the new hospitals. Then landlord delayed signing the lease & then demanded an even bigger increase. They found somewhere else, signed a lease & we’re just told yesterday that the landlord if that one wants to pull out now.

Has to move out of current place in a few days. She will have to stay with us & commute in or sofa surf on the days she has long shifts or there are train strikes.

Apart from this, she has had a very good experience so far. She feels that there is more support out of hours in the bigger hospitals.

Sorry for all the auto-correct spelling mistakes!

Need, Yes, modern tests imposed to be "fair" can make the whole process in all kinds of careers very long winded and sometimes less fair than a couple of interviews where you might be asked technical questions might do just as well. Yet once you are a few years into most professional careers those tests are not used or at least not as often in the private sector anyway, and we go back to a normal system of interviews and perhaps a few technical questions about your subject. One of mine has an interview for a secondment this week which I am very pleased about (although only if he gets the "job" which I suppose we might know later next week). I hope they want him in 5 days a week but I am sure he will find out in due course and both twins continue to live at home and are my trainee solicitors until 2024. I think they will both live at home at least until 2024 now which is what I expected or indeed 2025. It is certainly hard to find places to rent in London at present and they can commute from here in outer London when and if they need to go in so we are lucky with that.

One met a school friend he had not seen for 5 years this week who read maths at university and now is at one of the big accountancy firms. I am always bothering the twins by asking them what their friends are now doing for careers so I expect they get fed up of my questions. I just think it is interesting where people I knew as teenage boys end up and why.

Haff online exams are certainly weird. My twins' two years (of law converseion and then LPC) never mind university final term were 100% examined online, most proctored (observed) with web cam and very strict rules BUT you could have any materials you liked in front of you - massive contrast to when I did law exams every day from 20 - 27 July except the weekend and not a single book allowed in and I had to know it by heart. There is no cheating as it is observed on the camera but the system of allowing any materials you lie printed out before hand, even 1000 books at one extreme (not that anyone could use so many) is just so weird, you are even allowed all the course materials in front of you (but you may not print the exam paper or its attached pdf materials nor have any electronics in the room other than the laptop concerned). I am sure it makes it easier. For my twins being able to type rather than handwrite was the massive difference that helped them however and in legal practice the job is such that although you need to know a lot of stuff in your head you DO look things up all day long so I suppose the online exams are consistent with that.

On holiday on the Broads with DD and her BF. We got one of the coveted moorings at Ranworth so are having a chilled afternoon before heading to the pub. Lots of wildlife, and it turns out the BF is a windmill afficionado so he's happy.

Well after a busy summer it’s back to an empty nest for me yesterday.

DS1 returned from his travels a few days ago needing a haircut , to put some weight and desperate for a pie and a pint! Then packed up and headed up North to start proper job today.

he thankfully found a group to share with & found a house to rent - further out than he would have liked but as alternative was a tent it will do.

He and 89 other grads started work today with 2 weeks of networking and induction. He’s been having some conversations with his manager over last few months so has a good idea of what project he will be working on.

i did shed a few tears when he left though. Feels quite final and he’s 6 hours drive away.

Eve, he seems to have done well and good luck to him in his new job. I keep pestering the twins to remind me who of their friends is doing what job but then I forget but it is certainly interesting to see them all enter the world of work. I have one of their friends staying this week (whose new tenancy does not start until the end of the week) and he can commute to work from our house. Another one is coming for a night tonight and my older son is coming to stay for a few days either today or later in the week, in both cases until Friday. One of my daughters is working from home one day this week (home being my home - which again is fine). it is getting quite complicated this week to work out who is here and when.

One of the twins has started his six month secondment to a London law firm (he is my trainee solicitor) who are very kindly not only having him there, but also letting him start this week and be treated as their other trainees in their induction programme. The work lap top and phone are here and he seems to be managing well with the tech so far. Tomorrow is the first day in the real office.

Just heard DS1 is working nights at Christmas, 23rd 24th 25th 😢
It's completely fair as he has no kids etc but first Christmas without him
And he'll be in Manchester on his own in the flat

Poor him, although sometimes it is fun to work Christmas compared with a normal week so I expect he will be fine. My children's father is an organist so we never had a normal Christmas as it was peak organ playing time from midnight to all the Sunday things. I suppose you can just get used to anything. We would often have Christmas in some sense such as a family meal simply on another day close by

Decorhate, I hope your DD has found somewhere to live. Bristol is also bad, which is why DD is relaxed about living solely in placement accommodation. If friends find somewhere with a rood for her, that will be great, but if not she can sofa surf/stay in a hotel once she returns from elective.

She really seems to be enjoying her elective. It was pretty random in that her intercalation tutor gave her a list of names she might approach, and she had little idea what she would be doing. She is being given a lot more responsibility than she had expected and is meeting some of the leaders in the field. With this under her belt she is able to ignore the opportunity for applying for a research based F1/F2. In part because there was nothing particularly that interested her, but also because she feels she wants to concentrate on the medical training rather than be pulled in two directions. It will be interesting to see whether, after two years of F1/F2 she has made up her mind about what sort of career she wants.

DD has spoken to friends at other medical schools and cheating seems to have been pretty rife. No opportunity for DD as she sat them in person as her home broadband was so slow. Apparently elsewhere they let students bring iPads into the hall and did not check that the "look up" facility was disabled so all you had to do was press on a word to get an instant definition. It is a pity. She worked hard and knew her stuff. I hope it won't matter too much when she comes to apply for specialist training. Otherwise she seems to be looking forward to spending a couple of years in a rural location.

It is really nice to hear of other new jobs and flats etc. I am quite relieved that it is now up to them and all I need do is offer a sympathetic ear.

@Carriemac That’s a shame but of course inevitable at some stage. Dd hasn’t got her rota yet. We are already planning to have two Christmases if necessary & she is close enough to collect & bring home if she has a few hours off.

@Needmoresleep Yes she found somewhere else to rent fairly quickly, luckily. Will be interesting to see what she does after F2. I think she will apply for some training posts & if she does not get anything she wants to do, will do some locum work & travelling for a year & apply again.

Odd they didn't manage to work out how to prevent cheating on those exams - DDs finals done at home were very rigorously proctored, I think I described it at the time.

She must have enjoyed her week boating with us, as she was very keen when DH floated the idea of trying a flotilla next year. We've done a fair bit of dinghy sailing in the past but never yachting - we didn't fancy sleeping on a boat in the full heat of summer during school hols.

DH and I are just back to our empty nest (again) too after rewarding ourselves with a lovely grown up holiday in Italy. DS1 has left for his second stint at uni and is re-living the student experience by promptly catching freshers flu despite (he says) not even going out. He's relieved to have been put in a flat with other students all around his age (mid twenties) and be in a tutor group with others in their thirties so he doesn't feel too ancient.

DS2 is head down in pretty continuous exams (including finals) between now and graduation. He's counted up that he has more exams over the next 6 months than in his entire previous 4 years of medicine so says in fact he's not yet even half way through his course! We are tending to get one word texts when we ask how he's doing - busy/ alright/ can't talk - but he spent an hour chatting to us about football at the weekend so we assume no news is good news.

Sorry to hear you'll be ds-less over Christmas @Carriemac . We're expecting the same on Christmases to come. It will take some getting used to, won't it?

Great that your dd is enjoying her elective @Needmoresleep It sounds like an incredibly valuable addition to her CV. DS is trying to get bits of experience here and there for his portfolio and is running an academic committee, teaching etc but he's left it all a bit late what with exams and the very important football social committee job!

We're in the middle of university applications again, hopefully submitting on Friday for Oxbridge 🤞

DD is busy with her job, she's not enjoying it but has a new job to go to soon.

Mdicial students certainly have a long road. My father read physics first for 3 years and only after his BSc moved to medicine. He was doing exams until age 30 as he did his diploma in psychological medicine after too (he was a psychiatrist as is my sibling).

My twins qualify in 2024 in law (as they did not read law at university) so that is 7 years from age 18 although even when qualified you are really just starting and don't know much.

It is nice to see one of my twins going off into the City every day very close to where I used to work (he is on a six month secondment to a law firm). So far so good. His twin had a very long all day law course yesterday but online so was here and one of my lawyer daughters was also here today as no trains to her employer today and she can't work at home as the baby is there. She might be back tomorrow too depending on the trains.

Good luck to those back in the middle of university applications again. The last of the 9 cousins, my nephew, is putting in his now and his sister has just started at Oxbridge at the weekend so soon no cousins will still be in school.

Psychologists do too, five years post graduate study.

Off to Boston next week with DD, a very late graduation trip . Literary tour of New England , she's applying for law training contract at the moment so maybe our last trip together for a while 🤞

Have a great time.
We're doing the uni application thing at the moment, the application went off two days ago so now we are waiting for offers.