Workload at Oxbridge - honest feedback please!

[rhubarba]

Hi - I’ve read quite a lot on here about the workload at Oxford / Cambridge being more ‘intense’ than at other universities. I wonder how much of this is self-perpetuating hype and how much is reality? If you have DC at these universities, are they constantly overwhelmed? How bad can it actually be? I was specifically wondering about social science subjects at Cambridge (DD starting later this year). Do they really have to write three essays per week? Is there time to have a social life? How much pressure is there? Please be honest!

@valbyruta you seem to miss the point that I was trying to make. I was trying to say that in my DD’s experience the students who found the workload a shock, were principally those who did fewer A levels and did not have demanding out of school schedules. I never said that they can’t cope. I was just trying to help the OP, not start an argument.

The bigger issue is that coping with workload is only one element of whether the DC will make a success of an Oxford/Cambridge degree and get the most out of the experience. @Dancingdreamer I think you say that your DD didn't enjoy her experience there and wished she had chosen another university. There are many DC who go up with fewer A levels and who do flourish academically and are very happy there. More often than not the number of A levels is more a reflection of the school they attended.

Well, we are all trying to help the OP and other potential students

My dd's experience, those of her fellow students and housemates, is that the workload is a bit of a shock to quite a few of them, at least initially (and beyond!), regardless of the number of A levels they have done

At the end of the day, it's about how motivated YP are whether it's Oxbridge or anywhere else

My DD nearly didn't go through fears of workload. It has at times been tough, more to do with imposter syndrome actually. But she has absolutely loved it there. Most do. And there are so many wonderful opportunities. Give it a go! Can always change if needs be.

I did English and we had between 1 and 3 2000 word essays a week and shitloads of reading. But no compulsory lectures! I worked insanely hard but played really hard too. Did loads of extracurricular stuff and also just hung out with friends. Terms are short and intense but you have nothing else to worry about - no travel, people come and clean your rooms, you can eat all meals in college if you want to. It’s an amazing experience.

My dd and others had the added joy of being a first year during Covid times

All learning online, often at home
Socialising was limited to max 6 household members
Plastic screens in the dining hall or marquee
No college bar or many other typical student activities
International and EU students unable to go home
etc

Some other year groups had problems too, esp students whose course involved time abroad

Ericasdog made an interesting (if slightly off topic comment) about the shift to “university blind” recruiting by many employers. Perhaps a good topic for a separate thread. I would be interested to read the experience of recent graduates — did oxbridge help or hinder prospects? Or was it irrelevant if applications were “university blind”?

@Inamuddle36 - yes, sorry about that. I think I was trying to answer on another thread. Re the issue raised, the move to 'university blind' graduate job applications by big employers, the strong policy by Oxbridge to recruit from state schools and the information that teaching is in the top three graduate careers for Oxbridge graduates all suggest that something is afoot who gets the 'top' jobs?

...and, in keeping with the topic of the thread, is the Oxbridge workload worth it given the above??

@PebbleStars yes my DD hasn’t loved Oxford but mainly because of the college she was pooled to, not because she can’t cope with the workload. It’s a college with a very particular vibe which doesn’t really suit her and doesn’t have the some of the history and traditions she really was looking forward to. She feels she has had all the disadvantages of Oxford eg high pressure and workload and none of the advantages eg college accommodation for 3 years. Living in Cowley was not for her. With hindsight, knowing the college she was given, she says she should have turned down her place and gone elsewhere. She’s on track to get a very good degree but has seen friends elsewhere on track for the same with half the pressure. They have also had the chance to choose who they wanted to live with whereas because of the college system, she has been forced to live with people in her college who weren’t really her friends. It’s sad really because Oxford was such a dream for her and it hasn’t lived up to expectations. She can’t wait to leave now and start her career.

I'm sorry your dd hasn't had such a great time at Oxford @ dancingdreamer

But at the end of the day they are there to study. The 'Oxbridge' experience whatever that means, and which means different things to different people, is surely secondary. But I kind of get what you mean too

[quote Dancingdreamer]@PebbleStars yes my DD hasn’t loved Oxford but mainly because of the college she was pooled to, not because she can’t cope with the workload. It’s a college with a very particular vibe which doesn’t really suit her and doesn’t have the some of the history and traditions she really was looking forward to. She feels she has had all the disadvantages of Oxford eg high pressure and workload and none of the advantages eg college accommodation for 3 years. Living in Cowley was not for her. With hindsight, knowing the college she was given, she says she should have turned down her place and gone elsewhere. She’s on track to get a very good degree but has seen friends elsewhere on track for the same with half the pressure. They have also had the chance to choose who they wanted to live with whereas because of the college system, she has been forced to live with people in her college who weren’t really her friends. It’s sad really because Oxford was such a dream for her and it hasn’t lived up to expectations. She can’t wait to leave now and start her career.[/quote]
How did she get put into that college as from what I understand, you apply to the college you prefer ?

Because students are very often interviewed by, or pooled to, a second college in the process, Hawkins. The offer can then be made by either of those colleges or even by a third one.

@FlyingSquid

Because students are very often interviewed by, or pooled to, a second college in the process, Hawkins. The offer can then be made by either of those colleges or even by a third one.

Ah I see, much appreciated for the context.

@Ericasdog

...and, in keeping with the topic of the thread, is the Oxbridge workload worth it given the above??

Maybe it depends to what extent the student sees their university education as an end in itself, not merely as a means to an end. My DD chose to do Engineering at Cambridge rather than electrical&electronic engineering elsewhere in part because it would have a high workload and be challenging. Why spend 4 years and a lot of money and not get as much out of it (and put as much into it!) as possible?

Similar to Errol's DD, mine chose to study at Cambridge because of the broad nature of the NatSci course. She could have studied Chemistry or Materials Science elsewhere, but would have done only those subjects. She has studied both to a high level alongside various other things.

@Ericasdog

...and, in keeping with the topic of the thread, is the Oxbridge workload worth it given the above??

For my dd - yes. The only way to have cut it down would have been to learn less maths. Which given that was her main reason for choosing C would have lessened its worth.

I think it's concerning that students at other top universities apparently do so much less work than at Oxbridge. Fine - let Oxbridge students work longer hours and cram more in. But if they're doing 3 or 4 times the work, then that strongly suggests that the other universities aren't expecting much of their students, and that standards are too low. Doesn't it?

Apols for quoting myself, Moodlesofnoodles, but this was my observation above -

I’ve heard a few current non-Oxbridge students - children of Oxbridge parents and so brought up on the idea of that learning model - who are amazed [and sometimes frustrated] at the relative lack of challenge of their own university lives: two or three essays a term, fellow students with no real enthusiasm for their subject who turn up to seminars having done no reading, ‘group’ projects that inevitably fall one or two people … That, to me, sounds grim.

But apparently the entire university experience is supposed to be a safe space nowadays. Students and their parents are ready to sue any tutor who causes stress (aka total breakdown in mental health) by setting work and expecting students to do it unaided and submit it by a deadline. (I’m pretty sure this was not the case at most non-Oxbridge universities half a century ago. But then there were other things wrong, so …)

Drifting away somewhat from the original question.

There seems to be a tacit assumption in this thread that consuming and creating more information leads to better educated people, an assumption that the hallmark of intelligence is the ability to process more stuff quickly, to be able to hack the pace in a cerebral sweatshop.

But the best ideas take time to germinate and develop. The deepest - and least labile - understanding of any topic requires exploration and musing over a long period and plenty of unstructured time in which little is apparently accomplished.

Fewer essays and fewer problem sheets may not be a bad thing.

I think more aimless punting and less slogging would, in the end, produce more innovative people ...

But the best ideas take time to germinate and develop. The deepest - and least labile - understanding of any topic requires exploration and musing over a long period and plenty of unstructured time in which little is apparently accomplished.

Thats what PhDs (and some types of work) should allow for. In STEM subjects, you really do need a good solid base of knowledge and ability to apply it before you're likely to be able to come up with anything both new and useful.

@Moodlesofnoodles

I think it's concerning that students at other top universities apparently do so much less work than at Oxbridge. Fine - let Oxbridge students work longer hours and cram more in. But if they're doing 3 or 4 times the work, then that strongly suggests that the other universities aren't expecting much of their students, and that standards are too low. Doesn't it?

I think it depends on the course. Elsewhere, STEM and clinical subjects should still have a decent workload of lectures, labs and some sorts of problem classes.

Of course you need a good foundation Errol. I’m not arguing about that. My worry is that in going so quickly, the understanding could be labile, as I mentioned in my earlier post.

The knowledge is there for exams but might not stick as well. Going more slowly gives you a better chance to make broader connections and, yes, to start to have your own ideas, even if they are not particularly novel or deep initially.

It could be that you can say five years later after a very intense fast-moving education that you have forgotten more than others will ever know but those who didn't try to process as much might have a stronger understanding of the basics later on. (In fact, this has actually been shown in studies.)

From what I saw of the way DD worked, while the terms were intense there was then time in the vacations for consolidation. And a lot of content builds on the previous layers so it's not just in one ear, down on the exam paper and out the other. The doing in problem classes / discussion in supos is good for embedding knowledge too. High content without those elements might give the outcome you fear.

@Moodlesofnoodles

I think it's concerning that students at other top universities apparently do so much less work than at Oxbridge. Fine - let Oxbridge students work longer hours and cram more in. But if they're doing 3 or 4 times the work, then that strongly suggests that the other universities aren't expecting much of their students, and that standards are too low. Doesn't it?

I totally agree. Expectations of students at most unis is breathtakingly low.