Is medicine a good choice?

[Runninghat]

It seems the bright kids at schools drift to medicine as my dd is being steered towards and has an interest in. But doctor friends are so negative about the career at the moment saying they wish they had chosen a different path if they had really realised what a life commitment to stress and studying it was. I would love to hear others views as there is no arguing with an idealistic teen.

From a medic parent's perspective, I think it is pointless to overanalyse the relative merits of a medical career. If you have a DC who is driven to be a doctor, they will do it anyway. We are a non-medic family and for a long time I felt uneasy about my DS choosing medicine for the reasons mentioned in this thread. However, over time it became clear to me that, even having the reality laid out before him, he simply didn't want to do anything else. DH and I tried to discuss alternative careers with him and the colour would drain from his face at the thought of, for example, any lucrative corporate/banking career. I remember saying to him 'But think of the pressure. On my worst days at work, I console myself with the thought that no one has died but you might not be able to say that'. His response was ' Well yes but a good day is never going to be saving someone's life is it?' I think that sums it up. Also, to be successful in most careers, you have to work your socks off through your twenties and thirties. I worked in a corporate environment where pulling all-nighters and working all weekend was the norm and you never knew which part of the world you would have to schlep off to at five minutes notice. That sounded glamorous but the reality was really anything but.

I never felt uneasy for a moment about DS1 going for Medicine. That was because - despite not being from a medical family - it was what he decided for himself at an early stage that that was what he wanted to do. If my DC want to do something, unless it's very illegal, I've never thought it especially healthy to try to dissuade them. DS1 graduated from Oxford in 2018 and has no regrets whatsoever. His sister has moved from Oxford History over to the medical world and also finds it a very good fit, although obviously physically pretty tiring. Both worked in London hospitals from the very start of the pandemic and I worried greatly about all the deaths that they saw, but they never complained and neither has opted out even after that level of pressure.

@goodbyestranger there is a huge difference between having healthy discussions around whether a teenager is considering all angles before making a decision that will shape the rest of their professional life and actively dissuading them from doing something they want to do on account of your own agenda. We were firmly in the former category. Senior medics said exactly the same things to my DS in work shadowing and I was grateful for that, not because I wanted them to put him off, but I really did want him to go in with eyes wide open.

There's arguably a huge difference from the perspective of the parent but equally arguably a minimal difference from the perspective of the DC opoponax.

But that all depends on the DC and the parents, goodbye - the personality and maturity of the DC, the personalities/attitudes of the parents and the trust and overall dynamic between the two. In this case, our motive was obvious to our DS. The backdrop is that we've always been very clear with our DC that their career and life choices are wholly their own and that whilst we will support, we will never steer.

Genuine question: why not steer dc? I had no support with my career plans and as a result have wasted years and years and lost out on money in the process. I have done well over the years and worked in many different jobs so have a wealth of experience. I also have friends and family who are engineers, medics, architects, project managers, IT people, self made artists etc. I can see their life style and how happy and secure they feel. I know my dc very well and know that one is incredibly well suited for the medical or another all involving fast paced profession, the other child who is no less academic is less suited as they are sensitive and perfectionist.

I would never heavy handedly steer but explore options and nudge whilst being guided by dc' interest and stamina is sure helpful?

@ChairCareOh I think that is the whole point of the thread.

Even defining what is nudging and what is steering is difficult, at least in our house. DH says he supports dc in whatever they want. He says I activiely discouurage med school. I would say "he puts a lot of pressure on them going to med school", and I think I am "supporting them in whatever they want"...

@TizerorFizz

My DHs company pays £150,000 pa for insurance. Many sole practitioners cannot even get insurance now.

Everyone who complains and think it’s shit being a doctor, why did anyone do it? I’m assuming they were all very stupid! Or maybe they just complain but do nothing about changing careers. How can anyone not know what it’s like being a doctor?

Lots of people have to move with jobs! Lots of people work really long hours. The potential to earn well is there for doctors. They can earn really well.

@pigcon1. I think your summary is realistic. My DD is self employed with basic maternity pay. No pension unless she pays it all herself and very long hours. She chose what she does and so do doctors. And they don’t even have to compete for work. I’ve seen few doctors in cheaper housing areas not affording a property pretty quickly. Reading some of this, anyone would think all professionals earn £100,000 at 25 and work 9-5 within beautiful offices. It’s not the case!

Grow up. No one really knows what it's like to do any job before they do it. You certainly don't understand what it's like to be a doctor, as your comments about 'private consultants' demonstrate. There's no reason why you should understand, but don't then criticise people who chose medicine at the age of 17 without understanding what it really involves.

And yes, lots of jobs are hard, and lots of people earn less money than doctors. But the point of this thread is not whether people who are currently doctors are hard done-by, but whether kids who are bright but with no particular enthusiasm for medicine should be encouraged to consider it,. And the answer to that is no.

Some things I did as a doctor before I was 30:
Hold the arm of someone who had just had it ripped off in some industrial machinery.
Had to tell a mother whose child had come in for a minor operation that he had died, totally out of the blue.
Looked at the head of a child who had come off a quad bike and seen her brain through a gaping hole in her skull. Had to tell her mother that she would almost certainly die.

In each case, I had no emotional support and had to carry straight on with my work.

And that's just three of thousands and thousands of similar incidents. Being an HCP (not just a doctor) is not like most other jobs. Don't do it unless you really, really want to do it.

@FancyAFlapjack some people really have no idea ! As a teacher I'm quite used to being told my job is easy and any old trained potato could do it better than me. Having seen my DD training to be a doctor, and hearing some of her experiences, I can only look in awe at what medics do. Especially during covid (DD worked as an HCA in local hospital). If you don't love it then don't do it. But that's no excuse to be treated so badly. DD thinks nurses have it much worse and is passionate about trying to change things. Lots of her generation are. So there is hope. If they don't all leave and head abroad.

mumsneedwine I hadn't realised about the F1 thing until I read it here. I wonder if there's any detail about what sort of applicants missed out. In other words a general shortage of places or applicants only choosing the most competitive areas when they weren't high enough in the rankings? I remember a big shortage of F1 postings when the new system was in its first year of operation, years ago, but if these aren't 'picky' applicants - that's so difficult after the long years of training. Do you have more info? Are there going to be more F1 places next year?

[https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/education-and-training/almost-800-medical-graduates-unallocated-for-fy1-places/]

www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/education-and-training/almost-800-medical-graduates-unallocated-for-fy1-places/

That’s a big no. I would have been crushed if any of mine had wanted to do it, but having grown up knowing the realities none were keen. Much easier, more pleasant and satisfying ways to make a living.

I work as a recruiter for the pharma industry. As an alternative to medicine there are many many (sciency and non sciency) options in this industry which are far better paid and less stress.
Seriously worth considering eg with a biomedical sciences or biotechnology degree.

We are hospital consultants and our Dd is currently doing medicine in spite of us not encouraging her to go into medicine. We did support her when she decided to apply for medicine.
I had her when I was a first year SHO ( equivalent to the current IMTs) and did all my exams and training when she was young. I would not say it was easy but my training was only possible as I have a very supportive husband.
I don't think the divorce rates are higher in medics compared to other high pressure professions - just my observation though !
We have a lot of medic friends and there were a lot of conversations about the difficulty as well as rewards of being a medic.
Medicine offers a wide career path and certainly pays decently. You could become a consultant surgeon with a very difficult training path ( my husband is one and it was hard as a family ) or you could choose to do academic medicine ( varied working time with pressures of deadline, funding etc.,) or work as a biochemist or GP or psychiatrist etc.,
I think the trick is to choose what you want to do after you graduate depending on what you will enjoy and happy to compromise on.
I despise politics and NHS inefficiency but love my actual job. Would I choose it again ? Yes.
Would I encourage my child to do it ? No, unless they really want to do and go into it with their eyes open.

It all comes down to motivation for me. What drives her? When she pictures her future, what does she want? If career satisfaction and a genuine passion for caring for people is what she wants then go for it, but it's not an easy life.

@ProfessorLayton1 what is academic medicine?

You spend approximately 50 % of training time doing research or teaching, training etc.,

At consultant level, you can be employed by the university and not by hospital.I think it is down to negotiations between university and the hospital if you want to keep your clinical sessions.
Most employed by university don't do out of hours work or choose what they want to do.

@ProfessorLayton1 that's just it though - no one can appreciate what it takes to get to the end unless you have participated in the journey eg Doing 24 hr on calls every other day for 10 days took its toll when I collapsed whilst assisting in a c/s. I couldn't have envisaged this as a 17 year old. Nor was I prepared for the 19 hrs on calls when I started out etc.

The monetary rewards in medicine is poor comparatively unless you are in specialities which can support private practice. The £140K offered at Consultant level is measles compared to day someone who works in the city in banking/ law

I’m a middle grade trainee in a medical specialty. Due to DC I’m part time, therefore training and the associated hideous shifts and vast amounts of additional work to have a stellar portfolio seem to stretch out in front of me forever. I suspect by the time I’m a consultant, nights/weekends etc will be the norm, not the exception. Money is tight at the end of the month when childcare/mortgage/bills are paid for. A lot of my friends who did other things earn substantially more than I do, even if part time.

Despite all this, I do still really enjoy my speciality and get a real kick out of my job. Patients are mostly brilliant people who I enjoy interacting with. I never find myself clock watching at work - usually the opposite! I would recommend it, but it’s not the glamorous life that is sold - if you go in thinking that you’ll be very disappointed and burn out rapidly.

If you are earning above £140k in the City banking or legal world you will also be working extremely long and often unpredictable hours chopc.

There's also a question about why anyone would actually need to earn in excess of £140k pa. Once you get to a certain threshold, surely the excess doesn't matter?

@goodbyestranger

If you are earning above £140k in the City banking or legal world you will also be working extremely long and often unpredictable hours chopc.

There's also a question about why anyone would actually need to earn in excess of £140k pa. Once you get to a certain threshold, surely the excess doesn't matter?

The money buys you the option to step down from a very intense job to a less intense one in your 40s. Partners, even non-equity partners, in City law, banking and professional services companies will be on well over £500k. If you are earning 5 times what a doctor at a comparable age earns, you can retire/reduce work 5 times earlier.

If you are burning to be a doctor, that probably isn't all that important, given that you can still earn a very good salary. But it should certainly be a factor to consider if, like the OP's DD, you are unsure about medicine.

Goodbye - those in the city/ banking/legal may work a lot of long and unpredictable hours in their junior days but you will know when they reach partner levels they are paid very very handsomely

The £140K is what you would earn on average as an NHS consultant ....... so no they are not comparable