Is medicine a good choice?

[Runninghat]

It seems the bright kids at schools drift to medicine as my dd is being steered towards and has an interest in. But doctor friends are so negative about the career at the moment saying they wish they had chosen a different path if they had really realised what a life commitment to stress and studying it was. I would love to hear others views as there is no arguing with an idealistic teen.

@TizerorFizz not this year. More graduates than jobs. 791 have not been allocated a position for August. Hoping to get one 22nd April but no guarantee. Not what they signed up for 5 years ago, taking on loads of debt and trying to get enough training during the pandemic.
Yet there seems to be a doctor shortage. No one thought to plan and make sure the F1 positions increased as the medical schools places did. The answer is money, so doubt there'll be a solution.

And newly qualified doctors are not well paid compared to some other graduate jobs. Many of DDs friends started on £30,000+, nice 9-5 jobs and not responsible for lives of others.
Never sure why medicine is seen as glamorous. It seems to me it's relentless exams every year for about 10 years after Uni, working ridiculous 13 hour shifts, often over night. And being moved anywhere over a larger area at the whim of the Deanery. Can see why some move abroad. Sounds like it's nice when you make consultant- in your mid 30s. Up to then it's tough. Got to really love it.

There’s (almost) no such thing as a ‘private consultant’, @TizerorFizz. 99% of doctors who do private work are NHS consultants too. The NHS contracts with consultants to work a certain number of sessions per week. They are free to do private work in their own time.

And doctors retire before 67 at the moment because the raised retirement age doesn’t apply to those retiring now. But it will affect younger doctors.

Conditions for young doctors are utterly different from the cohort nearing retirement. On the one hand, young doctors are (thank god) no longer required to work 100+ hour weeks but, on the other, many will face lifelong shift work, which is exhausting and saps the joy out of life (a problem for many HCPs, of course, not just doctors).

Most highly paid jobs are stressful, and involve long hours, as you say. But medicine is the worst of all worlds in this respect, in that it is stressful and exhausting, but is relatively poorly paid, compared to other top professional jobs that are equally intense. Again, this is not to complain about doctors’ remuneration, but I would really encourage anyone contemplating medicine to think about whether they would prefer a better remunerated job that will give them the freedom to move onto a different career while still relatively young.

There is a lot of envy on MN about salary (in general, I mean, not from you) but I would encourage any young woman to consider her own worth and how it can best be deployed. There are many ways to be altruistic without sacrificing your mental and physical health, which is what many HCPs end up doing.

From knowing doctors and working in a univeristy… this sounds obvious, but don’t do medicine unless you want to be a doctor. Like, really, really, prepared to give up freedom over work life balance throughout your twenties (and beyond), want to be a doctor.

Getting “out” of medicine seems harder than getting out of other professions as well.

Medicine is a calling not just something for a clever young person to choose because it requires high grades. Do they want to be a dr? Do they know the training period (very long) and hours (anti social)? It's a great career if you are going into it with eyes wide open but you need to be passionate about it

I would suggest also looking at something like engineering, lots of kinds - my dd to s studying robotics and her course had 100% of students onto graduate schemes, highest in the country (2019 latest year figures available for obvious reasons)

I'm a GP. I also work part time although actually in 3 days I work more than 36 hours and barely get a break to go to the bathroom (and never lunch) so I work as hard as any full time person in another career.
I don't regret my career choice as I enjoy the medicine bit of my job. The crap that goes with it though I could really do without. And the complaints (about the "system") are never-ending despite the fact that literally we can do no more and have very little control over any of it.
I would not recommend it to young people as a good career choice (I'll get to retire at 60 and am counting down the years; they definitely won't be retiring before national retirement age due to the new pension arrangements) but I'm grateful that some still want to do it and our trainees are keen, enthusiastic and brilliant (albeit already getting jaded by the complaints).
I think it's a good career for those who can't imagine themselves doing anything else but not for anyone who would be happy with another job.

When I worked in surgery a LOT of the consultants were on their second families. Hard to make it through registrar training without getting divorced along the way. DH is a doctor and would not recommend it. He’s on under £50k at 30 (boo hoo yeah I know but trying to get childcare around shifts is bloody expensive and he’s moved county 3 times since graduating to move for the job!). He’s a full time GP trainee.

@gogohm

Medicine is a calling not just something for a clever young person to choose because it requires high grades. Do they want to be a dr? Do they know the training period (very long) and hours (anti social)? It's a great career if you are going into it with eyes wide open but you need to be passionate about it

I understand why people say the first bit above and there's some truth in it - but it's also used to browbeat doctors into accepting crap terms and conditions: "but think of the patients" and "this isn't just a job, it's a vocation". At the end of the day, actually, it's just a job. A job with a lot of responsibility and some huge rewards (we get to save lives) and some huge heartaches (we get to watch people die, sometimes far too young) but it is a job. Those doctors who go home and think about their patients or check in when they're supposed to be off - those are the ones who burn out first. It can be very dangerous to perceive it as more than a job (even though I get why people say it) because it elevates it in people's minds and then they accept that they can't go home after a 12 hour shift because their replacement hadn't turned up - that isn't safe nor something they should accept but they do it. Just look at Hadiza Bawa Garba - accepting far too great a responsibility on her first day back after maternity leave and getting crucified for the tragedy that ensued - but I can guarantee you that if she'd gone to medical staffing and said that she needed senior support on site she would have been told that she just had to get on with it, unlike in most other jobs. The only hope I can see for junior doctors is if they fight for medicine to be treated as any other job where they can leave on time and where they aren't expected to act beyond their competence if there isn't anyone else available (but castigated for it when something goes wrong).

Also - and this isn't part of my experience because I'm too old - unless you graduate very high in your year group (foundation school jobs are picked in order of where you came in your cohort) you have very little control over where you work and therefore live. I know lots of junior doctors in their late 20s and early 30s who are in relationships/married to other junior doctors but where their jobs are 3+ hours drive from each other. So they try and live in the middle, both have horrific commutes, childcare is a nightmare...
I swear that's why so many doctors have 3+ children - it's so they can have maternity leave and not have to manage their working lives for a year! (Slightly tongue in cheek but not entirely).

@Choppies

When I worked in surgery a LOT of the consultants were on their second families. Hard to make it through registrar training without getting divorced along the way. DH is a doctor and would not recommend it. He’s on under £50k at 30 (boo hoo yeah I know but trying to get childcare around shifts is bloody expensive and he’s moved county 3 times since graduating to move for the job!). He’s a full time GP trainee.

For balance, there are 22 consultant surgeons in my department. Two are divorced. One has never married. The rest are happily married. All but 2 have children.

Too many schools encourage and push teenagers to apply for medicine because it looks good for them, parents love it and they are uninformed about alternative paths for people who are good at science. When I was at school the options pushed were law if you were good at humanities and medicine if you were good at science. Quite a few of those pushed to do medicine haven’t taken up a career in medicine.

Medics grads earn well in comparison to other grads. Certainly 5 years after degree. It’s easy to look up the stats in the IFFS report from around 2018. Yrs you will always find careers where the grass is greener for a few but that’s not the whole picture.

The posters who are talking about pensions simply don’t understand pension pots and taxation. Loads of doctors retire early to avoid paying tax o.know their pension pots. It’s a well known reading for early retirement. That won’t change unless the taxation system changes.

In addition, there are leads of professional people who work 12 hours a day. Lies of them are paying every £1 themselves into their pensions too. They don’t have the state paying up for them. A little bit of balance and understanding is needed. Virtually all med grads get jobs. That’s a vital statistic too.

However plenty of the wrong people still do medicine. So if it’s not 100% what you want, then don’t do it.

"For balance, there are 22 consultant surgeons in my department. Two are divorced "
where I am:
4 divorced
1 not married
2 happily married

Pensions: Yes, lots of early retirements but scheme has now changed for younger generation.

"I understand why people say the first bit above and there's some truth in it - but it's also used to browbeat doctors into accepting crap terms and conditions: "but think of the patients" and "this isn't just a job, it's a vocation"."
Yeah, I think now it's actually the consultants that stay beyond, check on their patients when they are not on call etc as they are ultimatley responsible. Junior doctors mostly go home in time unless thre are gaps in their rota

Sorry about typos earlier. Should gdvd gone to ….., as the advert says.

There is little doubt that mostly medic grads get employment, can easily work abroad and will continue to have great pensions when compared to the majority. The highest salaries are in London for other grads. Everyone has to move to London. There’s no guarantee any student can work where they wish.

Doctors protesting has become the norm. Complaining about salaries is simply unacceptable when they really did have other options. If any young person by now doesn’t understand and evaluate the job, the hours, the pay, the options for progression and the great pensions still on offer, they really should do something else. At least they don’t have to pitch for work. Or truly run their own business and get and keep clients. Their clients just walk through the door!

Wow. So doctors just shut up about the shit conditions. You're lucky to have a job. Other professions have it just as hard (they also have 13 hour night shifts, are moved all over the country at their employers whim every few months and have other peoples lives in their hands (???). Oh, and have one possible employer that is chronically understaffed)
And have to pay £0000s every year to take exams and for insurance. Out of their v massive pay.
I'm very glad young people do still want to become doctors but there are much much easier ways to earn a living.

I think this is fairly location and aspiration dependent. In London you may not afford a house and you certainly won’t be looking at an upper middle class lifestyle unless you have family money. Law/Technology/Finance seem to be the only way forward on that front. But the job is rewarding in other ways and over the next 15 years it is likely we will move to using more private healthcare as a country so maybe the salaries will be better.

Out of London I think you can still have a good lifestyle. It’s also crap for family life (although the mat leave and pay are good) unless you are very controlled with your hours. Sure some people are better than others.
You can get burned out or just suffer from compassion fatigue. My experience is based on hospital based drs only.

[quote mumsneedwine]@Runninghat so did we. This year it's awful. Nearly 800 hard working young people with no job to go to. They are hoping to sort it but it's never been so many. And only going to get worse as medical schools increased places but no increase in F1 jobs. Totally stupid. [/quote]
Note stupid at all. Completely deliberate.

UK Medics wages are already at the lower end of what doctors in other countries are paid, and relatively low compared to other equivalently qualified graduate jobs pay.

An oversupply of new doctors is an absolutely intentional effort to increase job competition and keep wages low.

I cringe when I see all the MN threads by mothers obsessing about getting their DC into med school, with no understanding of what they are letting them in for. Well done for focusing on what’s really right for your DD,

Not all of the Mums in these threads are pushing them into Medicine, so please don't assume.

I'm on those threads but have regularly questioned DS on why he wants to do Medicine and have often tried to steer him into another direction.

My DHs company pays £150,000 pa for insurance. Many sole practitioners cannot even get insurance now.

Everyone who complains and think it’s shit being a doctor, why did anyone do it? I’m assuming they were all very stupid! Or maybe they just complain but do nothing about changing careers. How can anyone not know what it’s like being a doctor?

Lots of people have to move with jobs! Lots of people work really long hours. The potential to earn well is there for doctors. They can earn really well.

@pigcon1. I think your summary is realistic. My DD is self employed with basic maternity pay. No pension unless she pays it all herself and very long hours. She chose what she does and so do doctors. And they don’t even have to compete for work. I’ve seen few doctors in cheaper housing areas not affording a property pretty quickly. Reading some of this, anyone would think all professionals earn £100,000 at 25 and work 9-5 within beautiful offices. It’s not the case!

Interesting thread. My dd wants to do medicine. I do have some concerns about it being a very difficult path to choose, but on the other hand, it seems to be a real vocation for her. She definitely wasn't steered in that direction by the school or by her parents. Nor has she chosen it because of the perceived job prospects. She just really wants to be a doctor.

Sometimes, when I read threads like this on here, I really want to persuade her to go off in a different direction, as there are so many other things that she could do instead. However, I know she wouldn't listen in any case. She is determined, and will therefore have to accept whatever challenges she encounters along the way.

It's a very interesting and engaging profession that is reasonably well paid and on the whole ( I realise there is a problem currently) offers guaranteed employment.There are many varied career options within it and the general public are generally well disposed towards and respect doctors.
It is not for everyone .it is very hard work and is hard physically, mentally and emotionally.The shift elemen,moving hospitals, studying for exams phase improves with time but working extremely hard doesn't lessen and colleagues of my age ( qualified for well over 30 years) would probably say that we are working harder now with less satisfaction than we have since our early days of training with 100 hours a week junior hospital doctor jobs.it really doesn't suit anxious perfectionists because as a qualified doctor one has to take on a lot of risk and ,particularly in General Practice but also for consultants in district general hospitals,there isn't necessarily someone to ask for help and support.I mention this because I have seen a number of very academic young people go into medicine to the huge detriment to their mental health in the last few years. The workload is hard to control leaving one with unease at having left things undone or possibly done less well than one would have wanted.This is hard to live with.
I love work but it dominates my life .it feels like a privilege to do what I do but ny DC are grown up and I can do my paperwork in my own time. I work part time, paid as half time and I limit it to 40 hours or so a week.I could easily work more hours.My DH is also a doctor and my salary covered child care until the youngest was about 11.I'm not complaining but young people should have their eyes open.We have three DC , two of whom could have done medicine if they had wanted to , none have although one is considering a career change and yet might.Lots of our friends have discouraged their DC from doing it as it is exhausting and they want their DC to have a work life balance that is difficult to achieve in medicine .Having said that, a fair proportion of their DC have gone into it and I suppose they are doing it with their eyes open.

My husband had a good, long career & was a consultant surgeon. He enjoyed his job but hated the "small p" politics & the endless waste & inefficiency of the NHS.
His job was always the most important thing in his life - quite rightly, of course - but it did mean that he/we had to make certain choices (e.g. no kids) that are not for everyone.
We have seen divorce, suicide & illness amongst our medical contemporaries so "glamorous" is definitely not the right word for this career!
Post-qualification exams are endless & expensive - you have to study in your own time. The hours in the working week are much better than when he was a junior doc, but the flip side is that juniors no longer learn as much or as quickly. Also these days you can end up being sent anywhere in the country for a job!

I am a GP. Absolutely love my work. However I resent being paid pittance in comparison to other professions like what another pp said. Your DC should do it if they have an absolute passion to study medicine. There are a whole range of careers and pathways amongst the medical profession you can go into. Some more lucrative than others and with differing work life balance.
Having had a recent long think about it, if I had my time again, I would still choose the same path as I absolutely love what I do and love the difference I make to people's lives. However I feel a large part of this is that my husband is the main breadwinner and I have always been able to work part time and pick and choose my jobs. I feel on my salary along I should be able to afford say school fees for my children - and I cannot.

So think long and hard before you embark on this path.

Maybe there will be fewer DC of doctors getting the medicine course places now then. Huge numbers of them have followed parents into medicine. They are medical families and pride themselves on it. Same with vets. They have all the advantages. They don’t seem to see the downsides. I don’t know a poor doctor. I guess DC pick up on that and don’t mind the work to get to where they want to be. Like most professional careers!