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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Original poster

DD fraudulently living in student flat for five months

159 replies

ThoseTallTrees · 06/03/2022 11:12

DD is 22 and started a masters degree but went part time two weeks into the term.

Since then she has effectively been fraudulently living in student accommodation which she is paying for from a legacy from a grandparent. She can’t live there as a part time student and obviously should be paying council tax.

We have repeatedly talked to her about this but she says she wants to stay the whole year and no one will find out - and that a friend of hers is doing the same.

Personally I’m surprised that one of her other friends hasn’t reported her but so far not. It’s been nearly five months.

Is she going to get away with it? If not, I hat might the penalty be?

OP posts:
Choux · 06/03/2022 17:45

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/housing/renting-a-home/student-housing/students-in-private-rented-accommodation/student-housing-council-tax/

Studying full time is classed as 21 hours per week of study and this includes study, tuition or placements. The OP quoted 12 hours but if that is the formal tuition and there is an expectation of 9 hours per week self study then she would still be classed as a full time student for council tax purposes.

If the uni hasn't yet notified the council she is part time then either there is nothing to report or they have overlooked it and won't do it now. But the facts given about the daughter would have me worrying if I was her mother:

Previous debts - used the inheritance to clear them.
So much stuff she needs a storage unit to keep them - so the debts were just frivolous spending
Went part time only two weeks into masters course - why so soon? Was this always the plan?
Doesn't work even though part time student - why not? Does she just not want to?
Has no income so lives off the inheritance and the money is coming to an end. So what then?

Sounds like she is living it up with no inclination to work while blowing an inheritance that could have helped set her up financially. When the money ends she will have no job, nowhere to live and no money for a deposit, no way of paying for the storage unit of stuff and will call mum to help her out.

Time to get tough with her OP - she sounds spoiled and delusional about how life works. Her inheritance has delayed the inevitable for her and she is going to have a very hard landing.

ChocolateDeficitDisorder · 06/03/2022 18:15

[quote NewModelArmyMayhem18]@ChocolateDeficitDisorder I beg to differ. I think the students have to send the local council (for every let they move into) a university-generated form which says what year they're in and when they're due to finish. So the council will get all the information they need from that.[/quote]
My daughter had already accepted a place on the Masters course before she finished the undergrad course - they still made her pay CT for the summer when they hadn't any previous summer. I guess that's the difference.

chesirecat99 · 06/03/2022 19:23

@SoupGiveMeSoup OP has looked up the flats on the gov.uk site and says that there doesn't seem to be a council tax valuation for the flat, only the building that was there previously. Any insights into that?

I'm surprised because one of DS's friends was living in university student halls as a warden and had to pay council tax after submitting his PhD thesis.

SoupGiveMeSoup · 06/03/2022 20:37

@chesirecat99 the building will be designated as a student accommodation, it will probably be in the tenancy that all occupants are full time students and therefore exempt from and council tax charge being levied. Therefore there will be no listing

The VOA doesn't have it listed as a domestic property, it will probably come under business rates as student accommodation. There are codes for all types of commercial property ie florists, banks, funeral parlor etc.

The warden flat will probably be a specific flat and once you stop being a full time student you are liable for council tax. Same as when a single parent has a child turn 18 then a full charge becomes applicable unless they are exempt i.e. student or low paid apprentice. It has been a long while since I worked in ctax and business rates but I loved that job.

NewModelArmyMayhem18 · 08/03/2022 14:59

My daughter had already accepted a place on the Masters course before she finished the undergrad course - they still made her pay CT for the summer when they hadn't any previous summer. I'm not sure why, but it doesn't matter if you've got another course lined up once you finish your first degree, you're still counted (for CT purposes) as not being a student for that three to four month interim period.

Appleseesaw · 08/03/2022 21:38

@NewModelArmyMayhem18

My daughter had already accepted a place on the Masters course before she finished the undergrad course - they still made her pay CT for the summer when they hadn't any previous summer. I'm not sure why, but it doesn't matter if you've got another course lined up once you finish your first degree, you're still counted (for CT purposes) as not being a student for that three to four month interim period.
It’s because you’re not a student for that period between courses.
NewModelArmyMayhem18 · 09/03/2022 07:52

True @Appleseesaw but show me a student with a spare (circa) £175 pcm to fork out for CT from the moment they've finished their course! Even if they do find a job almost immediately, they may be waiting up to a month to get their first pay packet! If feels kind of exploitative when they're already (over) contributing to the local economy by paying exorbitant (for students) rental costs.

Bouledeneige · 09/03/2022 07:59

You don't sound like you are very kind and supportive towards your daughter. Leave her alone. As another poster said, leave her to it - she's an adult. I can't imagine why her friends would report her or why they would care. We are not living in nazi germany.

constantindigestion · 09/03/2022 08:06

I used to work in the council tax department a long time ago. From what I can remember, they will have to submit records to show that they are full time students. I think it's called a student certificate. If this happens mid tax year year , they will be given to the April to pay it in instalments. If they can't , they can offer a payment arrangement.

If the instalments or payment arrangement isn't kept, it'll go to court and a Liability Order will be granted. This gives the tax payer another opportunity to make a payment arrangement , and if that isn't kept them then the council has powers to recover the debt by bailiffs or an attachment of earnings order. If this does happen, it's not like credit card debt etc in that it won't affect future credit score etc

Landedonfeet · 09/03/2022 08:21

@Bouledeneige

You don't sound like you are very kind and supportive towards your daughter. Leave her alone. As another poster said, leave her to it - she's an adult. I can't imagine why her friends would report her or why they would care. We are not living in nazi germany.
This isn’t a loving mother daughter relationship on any level

The op point blank said she worked because she’s worried that the daughter would come to her to “bail her out”

StarCat2020 · 09/03/2022 08:43

Council tax is 50% property and 50% person based on 2 adults living there
Explains the 75% thing.

Akways wanted to know this.

miltonj · 09/03/2022 11:03

It's not ideal but I wouldn't worry about having to bail her out. If she does get found out, she'll be able to pay it back on a payment plan, at whatever she can afford. I was an idiot at 19 and didn't pay and when found out I paid it back at 50 quid a month. I have a friend who was in the same situation as a teen snd paid 1 pound a month!

It never effected my ability to rent again or get a mortgage. Within 2 years my credit score was 'good' again. So not the best but won't be the end of the world. It will likely slip through the system anyway.

OrangeCinnamonCroissant · 10/03/2022 06:31

A lot of universities have data sharing agreements with local councils, this is covered off by consent at registration/re-registration each year. They will send spreadsheets/uploads of lists of FT students in postcode areas. It may catch up with her.

Related to previous comments it used to be that jobseekers allowance could be claimed at end of course and that could trigger other benefits e.g Council Tax Benefit (different from exemption) I'm not sure of the arrangements now but if available to work FT and not studying (regardless if they have applied for a Masters) the council will deem them liable for ctax. It is worth looking into benefits asap that may trigger a ctax discount if ex student can't find a job upon leaving uni instead.

@ThoseTallTrees do you think she was FT in order to get the Masters student loan? As others say there is a lot of worrying behaviour here...you are right to be concerned. Certainly at the end of year it will come to light that she is eligible to pay for council tax , if still in the property as a FT Masters is one year. If she needs to renew her contract it might be that they ask her to confirm FT status to letting agency again. Which she won't be able to do.

OrangeCinnamonCroissant · 10/03/2022 06:36

There are cases when PT (as defined by a University) is not PT as defined by council, I think someone said earlier in the thread. In that case she can get a letter confirming her study and tuition hours over a certain number of weeks. The council can then see if she meets their definition of FT/PT. In some universities dropping one module means they define you as PT in some it can be 50% of a course.

Prettynails · 10/03/2022 06:41

Surely she’s not earning enough to pay council tax?

MarchingFrogs · 10/03/2022 06:59

@Prettynails

Surely she’s not earning enough to pay council tax?
It isn't income based.
Original poster
ThoseTallTrees · 10/03/2022 07:20

@OrangeCinnamonCroissant I hadn’t thought that about the loan but TBH I doubt she would have thought that herself. She just found it too much hard work. She really hasn’t applied herself to anything and I am really worried she’s going to end up back at home, not working or studying. We both wfh now and DH works in her room and I work in the kitchen so it would be utterly hideous all round.

OP posts:
Landedonfeet · 10/03/2022 07:25

* utterly hideous *

To have you daughter back home

OrangeCinnamonCroissant · 10/03/2022 07:36

[quote ThoseTallTrees]@OrangeCinnamonCroissant I hadn’t thought that about the loan but TBH I doubt she would have thought that herself. She just found it too much hard work. She really hasn’t applied herself to anything and I am really worried she’s going to end up back at home, not working or studying. We both wfh now and DH works in her room and I work in the kitchen so it would be utterly hideous all round.[/quote]
She does sound like she is struggling to cope with the demands of life for whatever reason. There could be other issues going on beneath the surface?

Original poster
ThoseTallTrees · 10/03/2022 07:51

@Landedonfeet Yes it would be utterly hideous to have another adult back home living in the room that DH now has to work out of. We have an open plan house where I’m working in the kitchen and she would have literally no where to go during the day. It would be awful. DH and I have discussed it and have even talked about remortgaging because if it happens, we might have to move house.

Great for you if you have the space to welcome your non-working adult children back home, but we don’t.

OP posts:
Original poster
ThoseTallTrees · 10/03/2022 07:52

@OrangeCinnamonCroissant The legacy was really the worst thing that could happen for her in a lot of ways: it’s sort of kept her in a fantasy world where she hasn’t had to work or think about taking responsibility for herself.

OP posts:
Landedonfeet · 10/03/2022 08:08

I don’t have the space
But as her mother… I would never ever regard my DD living with me as “utterly hideous

Original poster
ThoseTallTrees · 10/03/2022 08:12

Any of my adult children or a parent living with us now would be utterly hideous. I’d not even know where they would sit all day. In my bedroom I guess. How is that sustainable?

OP posts:
Landedonfeet · 10/03/2022 08:15

Read your posts
You seem to despise your own daughter

LottyD32 · 10/03/2022 08:21

I'm glad you aren't MY mum, Jesus Christ.

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