university nightmare

[Strangeways19]

so my dd has gone to uni last September she did a levels and a further college course to help prepare her. Is it normal though for tutors not to show up to tutorials regularly? or the students to be told that they can't access the equipment they were told on intake would be available to them? DD rang me last week in floods of tears because of the way that the technical support had told her to forget doing the work she wants to do until she's in year 3, she pointed out that this very person had told her that she only had to ask and they'd find a space and time to ensure she could make use of the resources (all of which are there for the students anyway!), this has been dragging on for a while now. I have only experienced her being upset like that a few times, meaning she was very upset.
She has been to the course leader who told her that she had to be 'more persistent' when trying to access equipment (this is despite the technical support blocking the access because according to them, she is at the bottom of the food chain, being a 1st year & all..!). I just think it is so unreasonable for her to have to hassle people so that she can access the equipment she came to uni to learn about and try. Surely they should be encouraging her?

I think understandably she is questioning why she is wasting her time at university, when the tutors aren't interested, and she can't access the things she needs in order to do the work she went there to do.
Is this slackness from a uni normal? We are at least half way through the first year and it seems to be getting worse rather than better, she has raised it now so we will see how things go, has anyone else experienced this slackness?!

If your daughter only went to university to 'expand on her skills' and she does not need a degree for a chosen career then she should complete the first year (to bank the university credits) and then leave. If it is more than skill building then start looking to transfer to a different course or university and start looking now.

If you have paid up front for an art degree and you are a uk based family (not classed as international) then wow! Do your sums! Look at what grads pay back.

You cannot base what she can do at university based on a not recorded conversation. Have you, or she, looked at the curriculum? That will tell you what she should be doing.

I agree with @PaulGallico. This course is the wrong one. So leave and start again or do shorter ceramics courses. You are over invested so I assume you have coughed up the money. However it’s the student’s responsibility to clarify the situation.

OP, I think you are getting an unduly hard time on this thread! Assuming the assurances about equipment access were given to your DD before she chose the degree, she is absolutely justified in being upset that those assurances are not being honoured, and fully justified in bringing whatever complaint she can. A university degree is one of the biggest investments most people will make, and staff shouldn't be able to get away with saying whatever it takes to get bums on seats without any regard for whether those statements match up with reality. Whether your DD has paid for the degree via a loan or not is completely irrelevant to that principle. I also disagree with those saying you are over-invested. In my experience it's perfectly normal for parents of young adults to still be providing a significant level of support for their children. However, it seems to be a thing on Mumsnet that whenever anyone asks for advice re a child who has reached the magic age of 18, a poster will inevitably pop up to chastise the OP for continuing to be involved in their child's life!

I agree that you're getting an unduly hard time. I work at a post-graduate only university so I don't have direct experience with undergrads. Even so, I can say that while our PhD students do get prioritised, our lab technicians and academics go to great lengths to make sure MSc students get the chance to use equipment too. The courses I work with are engineering and the equipment we have is a huge reason students come here. There's one particular piece which isn't available anywhere else in the world. During the worst of covid restrictions it was difficult to get in because of social distancing but the technicians and research fellows changed their hours so lab supervision was available for 16 hours a day just to fit students in. They really cared about student experience because our graduates are the best advertisement we have for future students and with practical courses, the hand on time is the most significant part of their learning. They can walk into interviews and confidently say they can do particular tasks or use particular equipment. I find it disappointing that your DD is potentially stuck with theoretical learning until her third year. In my opinion, 3 years of regular hands-on experience is far more beneficial than 1 year of intensive experience. She needs the opportunity to apply what she's learning in a practical way as she learns.

Neither of you know what the curriculum
Is on this course. She’s not a PhD student. Most of us don’t advocate for our DC. We are informed but we don’t ring the university to complain.

and that was my point too Tiger. As parents of course we are all interested in our children and what they are doing and support them. However we support them to advocate for themselves in situations where they are adults. It is quite possible that higher year students are being given more access to the studios because they were unable to access it during covid lockdowns - during which they still paid their £9k tuition fees which they too will be paying back. The reality is if there isn't time now then in y2 and 3 your daughter will be the one with the studio time whilst yes can't access it.

Well only 20% of grads pay off loans and art students are the least likely to pay them back. Many pay nothing much but I’m not sure if the op paid up front or not. However students do have to accept resources might not be available and the op still hasn’t said what DD is studying. What are core subjects and what’s optional. The kiln and studio use seems to be by negotiation or possibly even free access when she visited the university. Maybe the rules have had to change?

Is it normal for tutors not to turn up?
No, although recent strikes may be part of the issue, some more dates are coming up as well
www.ucu.org.uk/article/12178/UK-universities-to-face-five-more-days-of-strike-action-before-Easter

The contact time for students and tutors in arts disciplines was being sliced quite thinly in face to face times, and at specific times of the three terms in a year (so usually 2 out of 3 terms will be intense, with all the teaching, and another comparatively self-directed). That might mean that those resources would also be freer later in the year but not in this term. Can't speak for everywhere but extensions also seemed much more easy to be granted within an art institution (i.e. th norm, rather than rarities - for plenty of reasons that would probably be uncommon if tried in other subjects). Art colleges can look 'slack' but they are more a case of programmes being less predictable or steady, progress in lulls and storms in comparison to other Higher Ed.

What course is she doing? I may be better to just quit and reapply for a ceramics course instead. Not the same probably but for my dds L3 course she was warned that lots of people struggle for the first 6-12 months because it’s a bit more prescriptive than they want as the have to do all different media. Sounds like your dd has done L3 and foundation and is ready to focus solely on ceramics.

The tutors didn't show twice for tutorials

Ill? We're still in a pandemic you know. One of my colleagues caught COVID from his students, who then complained about his 2 week absence ... There's no money to replace expert & specialised teaching staff if they become ill. You can't exactly call in a temp from the local temp agency.

Most universties are pushed for space & facilities, sadly (£9k a year does not cover the costs of intensive courses such as art practice degrees - the real cost of these is nearer £15k per annum per student).

3rd year students are necessarily prioritised, as they are in their graduating year. 1st years don't like this, ever, but there's a logic to it. For a start, 1st years are rarely skilled or technically trained enough to work without supervision, so they have to do their studio/lab work in taught modules to learn this, rather than in self-directed sessions.

And I' afraid as harsh as some responses may feel, your DD does sound a bit over the top. Floods of tears about not being able to book a facility that - as it has been explained to her - is under a lot of pressure by other users?

She's still doing loads of other stuff , she's in the studio everyday doing something. Its just sad that she isn't able to develop the skills she wants to

Maybe she would be better advised to trust that actually, the expert artists who have constructed the curriculum for the 3 years of the degree she's doing, might actually know what they're doing here? And that just because she wants to become a ceramicist, detailed work in a range of other areas, might actually help her become a better ceramic artist?

So contextual studies, writing, reading, art history, life drawing, painting, learning about eg printing, or textiles, will all add to her understanding of her little area of a much bigger field of fine art practice?

She's at university to learn from experts: she needs to be a bit more open-minded about what & how she learns. She won't develop as an artist by remaining in a narrow field. Most artists are interdisciplinary.

@LaChanticleer

She's still doing loads of other stuff , she's in the studio everyday doing something. Its just sad that she isn't able to develop the skills she wants to

Maybe she would be better advised to trust that actually, the expert artists who have constructed the curriculum for the 3 years of the degree she's doing, might actually know what they're doing here? And that just because she wants to become a ceramicist, detailed work in a range of other areas, might actually help her become a better ceramic artist?

So contextual studies, writing, reading, art history, life drawing, painting, learning about eg printing, or textiles, will all add to her understanding of her little area of a much bigger field of fine art practice?

She's at university to learn from experts: she needs to be a bit more open-minded about what & how she learns. She won't develop as an artist by remaining in a narrow field. Most artists are interdisciplinary.

Far points, but I wonder if Leonardo da vinci would of been as revered and great, if he had followed the wisdom of others ?

“ When he was about 15, his father, who enjoyed a high reputation in the Florence community, apprenticed him to artist Andrea del Verrocchio. In Verrocchio’s renowned workshop Leonardo received a multifaceted training that included painting and sculpture as well as the technical-mechanical arts. He also worked in the next-door workshop of artist Antonio Pollaiuolo. In 1472 Leonardo was accepted into the painters’ guild of Florence, but he remained in his teacher’s workshop for five more years, after which time he worked independently in Florence until 1481.

Leonardo was 25 before he worked independently apparently.

www.britannica.com/biography/Leonardo-da-Vinci

@Hawkins001
Da Vinci was trained in a workshop in Florence - Andrea del Verrocchio. The idea that he would just do what he wanted cannot be substantiated. He did what he was told to do. This is why reading is vital! He was also unique in that he was also an engineer, astronomer and mathematician. He saw many great works of art and no doubt drew inspiration from them. The wisdom of others is certainly always present in art.

Thanks @OnTheHillNotOverIt and @TizerorFizz - it's amazing how the absolute myth of the independent genius is so persistent and universally believed.

[quote TizerorFizz]@Hawkins001
Da Vinci was trained in a workshop in Florence - Andrea del Verrocchio. The idea that he would just do what he wanted cannot be substantiated. He did what he was told to do. This is why reading is vital! He was also unique in that he was also an engineer, astronomer and mathematician. He saw many great works of art and no doubt drew inspiration from them. The wisdom of others is certainly always present in art.[/quote]
Fair points , I made a pickle with that example, I thought i had remembered correctly but pickles,

@LaChanticleer

Thanks *@OnTheHillNotOverIt and @TizerorFizz* - it's amazing how the absolute myth of the independent genius is so persistent and universally believed.

Fair points to them , I was wrong, however at some point some people do surpass the masters, and sometimes if you know your knowledge, ect why be held back just because one one person's expertise or a small group , especially if you have the confidence and know your skills that you can be more and better ?

@Hawkins001

That’s ok! Yes. Huge talent will emerge from the shadows!

I think art degrees do follow a format. My DD has a friend who is a successful ceramicist and her work is sold in major galleries. She did 3 dimensional art at Bath School of Art. I think courses do allow for experimentation and talent to emerge but I think it’s early days for the DD here on the back of a very difficult time for all universities.,

however at some point some people do surpass the masters, and sometimes if you know your knowledge, ect why be held back just because one one person's expertise or a small group , especially if you have the confidence and know your skills that you can be more and better ?

Of course, but not a 1st year university student, who seems to have a rather narrow view of her practice.

@floBot7 & @LilyPond2 thank you for your kind comments.
I admit I haven't read the whole thread - I completely agree that DD could raise a complaint if she wanted to, she knows the curriculum for the course she's on & the course isn't delivering.
Some people on this thread have maybe thought that I telephoned the uni to complain which wasn't what happened at all. I just put her in touch with student support & I'm not going to be sorry for that. And I think there's some people who have way too much trust in tutors & universities which isn't matched with students experience or reality.

Doing a degree is a huge investment & some strange comments about being in a pandemic, & this is why tutors aren't showing up...they can't use that excuse anymore can they? Especially as the reason was that...they forgot...for those who like a happy ending she's joining the 2nd year of a degree doing the specialised work she wants to study.

She's been hugely successful with her own stuff on her year out & I think she deserves to continue with her work - she'll always have family support should she need it.
For those people who judge - you know nothing about her or us, our background or our lives, so please don't judge.

@PaulGallico it was a nightmare - why are you judging how it felt to us? Or to her? Or what I as a person do, or don't do? I kind of think that's quite odd, I know lots of parents who would want to support,

I've not complained to the university I've put her in touch with student support. If this somehow offends you I'm sorry for you. But I don't quite get your judgement or what the issue is.

I'm also happy to support her & I feel that is right, it's not really an issue for me if you disagree - I've explained this elsewhere in the thread. Also no you are wrong about my experience of university too, I went back & had a very positive experience.

@cha

@LaChanticleer thank you for your comment but as I've tried to explain the issue is that there's literally no tutor support or teaching going on, the students have been left to it & the work that she wants to do in the studio she can't because there's a lack of resources.
I'm going to say that she's not getting expert support or teaching - it's just rubbish, one student on her course hasn't even seen her tutor all year. Its a disgrace. She only got to see hers because she asked the course leader why the tutor wasn't showing up! The answer was "I don't know" ... Its not like in our day when it was free, now they have to deliver because it's paid for.

She's also been in education and college since she was 5 & us well used to learning from other experts. Her results both her A levels & college work after was exceptional- she's always got on well with her tutors. I feel like people have some idea that she's just some sort of rebel but that's very far from the truth! She's placid & studious, she just wants to get what the program said she would.

Anyway it's a good ending though she's going to a different uni & she'll be ok! Good news

Strange the transfer to a specialised degree sounds great.
I have a DC who is weighing up an art degree and occupational therapy. Very different options. This thread has helped us think about things like contact time so thank you.

@OnTheHillNotOverIt it's a huge step & I guess being positive DD has learned that she can reverse her way out of the situation with a bit of energy!
One of my friends dd's has just dropped out of the 2nd year of a very prominent costume design degree & was getting really depressed & felt like there was too much demand on her - she left about a month ago but her tutors haven't noticed & are asking her for work!
Honestly...
I would say when choosing which degree ask questions about the course at open days, to staff & students - DD has been given a full outline of the program at the new uni which gives her some hope that this time there's more chance that they'll deliver it.

DD was going to do science also first but changed her mind as her heart is in the art world, your DD sounds like she's thinking seriously about the options which is a good sign, good luck with it all!