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Higher education

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Original poster

Dual French /UK National studying law in UK advice needed.

111 replies

Wallywobbles · 06/02/2022 15:25

Hi

DD and I are looking for some information about her options. On another thread, I was told that she should be eligible for home fees as she is a British citizen even though is ordinarily resident in France. We will contact SFE to see if she is eligible for loans. She has savings that cover the first 2 years of fees if they are home fees level.

DD is about to finish her French Bac. She's predicted pretty good grades 15.5 +, and we have been looking at her doing a LLB in English and French Law. Currently, she is pretty certain that she wants to practice in France.

I am keen for her to avoid doing the first 2 years in a French Uni doing law because I think she will be eaten alive. As a result, my first choice is LLB Kings, 2 years at Kings and 2 years at the Sorbonne, which means she comes out with a Masters 1. She needs 16+ at the BAC to get in though. And as yet no offer has been received. She did her LNAT, but we don't have the result yet, but Kings do have them.

She has had a pretty comfortable offer from Goldsmiths, which is currently her first choice, but they are saying that she will need to pay international fees which means it is unaffordable. She likes the criminology and human rights aspects. This is a 3-year UK degree, with no French bit, so I am uncertain if she would then be able to do a Masters in Droit in France, or whether she would then need to do a redo a third year of Licence in France.

We have 4 to put through uni in quick succession and she is the first, so we cannot overstretch ourselves financially for one.

So current questions are, I think:

Is she really eligible for home fees (British but never lived there but lots of family there)?

She'll only be 17 (October birthday) at the start. Does she really need a visa?

Is Goldsmiths worth the money?

Would she have a good time at Kings (she's not overly impressed by the website)?

Would you take a gap year if you were her? She's suddenly gone cold on the idea - not sure if it's due to covid, or the French attitude to gap years, or if it's leaving her boyfriend (she denies this).

Thank you for any help.

OP posts:
Einszwei · 06/02/2022 15:28

Student finance is not based on nationality but residence. She will have to pay international fees if she has never lived in the UK.

KittenKong · 06/02/2022 15:31

Could she look at Scottish universities of she has French passport and resident in France?

LefttoherownDevizes · 06/02/2022 15:32

She would be Overseas fees for sure, unless you could prove she was OR in UK but temp absent for reason of temp job abroad.

You would need to check the French requirements re redoing a treat.

TBH if she wants to practice in France it would be much easier for her to study there.

Kings is well considered for Law, Goldsmiths less so

KittenKong · 06/02/2022 15:32

(And not pay fees)

rifling · 06/02/2022 15:35

Is she really eligible for home fees (British but never lived there but lots of family there)?
Yes, she should be eligible for home fees as this was part of the withdrawal agreement although I'm not 100% sure as it doesn't seem to be advertised anywhere! Maybe it was cancelled?

AlexaShutUp · 06/02/2022 15:35

I agree, she won't be eligible for home fees if she isn't ordinarily resident in the UK. Her nationality is irrelevant.

If she has a British passport, though, she would not need a visa.

AlexaShutUp · 06/02/2022 15:38

@rifling

Is she really eligible for home fees (British but never lived there but lots of family there)? Yes, she should be eligible for home fees as this was part of the withdrawal agreement although I'm not 100% sure as it doesn't seem to be advertised anywhere! Maybe it was cancelled?
Actually, you are right, I stand corrected.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/eligibility-for-home-fee-status-and-student-support-in-england/

LefttoherownDevizes · 06/02/2022 15:46

Ooh sorry I didn't realise there agreement was til 2028, she would be home.

Look at UKCISA, page 40 www.ukcisa.org.uk/uploads/files/1/england_he_who_pays__home_fees_public_version6_21.12.21.pdf

rifling · 06/02/2022 15:47

@AlexaShutUp Thanks for posting that, I was beginning to think I'd dreamt it! I remember at the time thinking that ds1 would be eligible but ds2 wouldn't as they are too young.

LillianGish · 06/02/2022 15:54

Student finance is not based on nationality but residence - not correct. DS is British, but lives in France and qualifies for home fees at Birmingham - he has various friends in a similar position at Warwick, Loughborough, Lancaster, Bristol, all pay home fees and have student loans. Explain the situation to Goldsmiths, send a copy of passport if necessary and I'm sure this can be rectified. Can't really advise on law degrees - though I would have thought it needs to be somewhere that does French and UK law (I know students who have done this at Exeter and Cardiff). Re taking a year off, everyone told us it was very much frowned upon in France and it does seem that this is the case anecdotally, but the reality for DD when she took a year off by default (started at UK uni, hated it and dropped out very quickly) was that she got her first choice through Parcoursup without even going on a waiting list when she applied again the following year. Applying with results seemed to be very much to her advantage.

Rosiiiiie · 06/02/2022 16:03

Not sure about fees but how would she practice in France if she attends a British uni? She’d have to take a language test? What about the bar exam? They’re completely different in both countries?
I studied law in an English speaking country and have been speaking French since I was born (lived in france for 12 years and both parents are French). There is no way I’d be able to practice law in france. I’d need to learn the French legal jargon and the French law. If she wants to practice in france then she needs to study in france.

Original poster
Wallywobbles · 06/02/2022 16:12

@rifling and @AlexaShutUp that really is great news. Thank you

@LillianGish - that's very encouraging. She's struggling with it all the moment as it seems a bloody huge admin mountain to her when added to her revision and school work. And I'm trying not to do too much for her. Adulting and all that.

@Rosiiiiie - the LLB at Kings would mean that she qualifies in France, as she finishes with a French Master 1, and can go straight onto a Master 2 and qualify. The other route from that LLB is European Law with a year in another European country eg Holland, Germany etc

OP posts:
Original poster
Wallywobbles · 06/02/2022 16:14

She has also applied to Birmingham - which is another LLB which has a year in France as a 4th year. But she doesn't seem interested in that, so I'm not giving it much headspace currently.

OP posts:
Frenchfancy · 06/02/2022 16:16

Very interesting about the home fees, DD3 (15) has just started taking an interest in Cambridge and we said we couldn't afford international fees.

However, if wanting to practice law in France it makes no sense to study in the UK even with home fees of 19k for 2 years, rather than France for 0€.

Why do you think she will be eaten alive at French Uni? She is French. She would be far more likely to struggle in what is to her a foreign country, a year younger than her fellow students. Unless she has done some serious catch up her written English is unlikely to be the same level as her fellow students (I know my DDs wouldn't be)

You talk about "my first choice" but what about hers?

Rosiiiiie · 06/02/2022 16:20

@Wallywobbles right, I’m not familiar at all with UK courses. I studied in Ireland.

Why is studying in France not an option? I briefly looked at it when I was 18. The first year is pretty tough but shouldn’t be a problem for a good student.

Justkeeppedaling · 06/02/2022 16:24

You seem to be playing a major role in organising the rest of your DDs life. How about you leave the research to her, and let her decide where she wants to study? It was your choice to have 4 children - you must have known you'd have to put them all through university at some point.

I think you've got a flipping cheek asking for British funding to attend a British university when it's never been your children's home!

TinyRebel · 06/02/2022 16:40

This is really useful as one of my DC (dual citizen) decided to do high school year in France (staying with father) and has stayed. Was going to do seconde at lycee and then return to the UK for 6th form in order to qualify for home fees, but good to knew can complete the bac if so wishes.
Although I suppose as I work and pay tax in the UK that would be the case anyway?

TinyRebel · 06/02/2022 16:41

Also, DC spends the entirety of the school holidays at home in the UK.

AlexaShutUp · 06/02/2022 16:43

@Justkeeppedaling

You seem to be playing a major role in organising the rest of your DDs life. How about you leave the research to her, and let her decide where she wants to study? It was your choice to have 4 children - you must have known you'd have to put them all through university at some point.

I think you've got a flipping cheek asking for British funding to attend a British university when it's never been your children's home!

It isn't a cheek at all, given that for much of the child's life, the OP would have had a reasonable expectation that her dc would qualify for home fees as an EU citizen. It is not her fault that the goalposts were suddenly moved.
Original poster
Wallywobbles · 06/02/2022 16:56

Law is one of the very competitive subjects in France. 10% of students get through from the first year into the second year. You also have to take a second full on subject because it is assumed that you will fail your first (and second) year and will need to do an alternative subject. It's a bit shit, and the latest reforms haven't actually helped, they just been you waste 2 years trying to get through rather than just endlessly re-doing the first year.

I teach at Uni here, and one of my first year groups are doing Maths and Medicine. One of the most talented groups of students I've ever had, and they are not in a good way mentally. The pressure is absurd. And we need more doctors - there is a serious shortfall, so the system is not currently fit for purpose.

OP posts:
Original poster
Wallywobbles · 06/02/2022 17:07

@Justkeeppedaling - two of the kids are my step-kids, but I fully expect that I will pay their fees too - in the interests of equity. Their mum certainly won't be willing to help towards funding - and that's fine. And they are unlikely to be following the traditional French uni route, and much more likely to end up going into paid further education. They are both very dyslexic which complicates things. Kids here are penalized in terms of career progression over the long term if they don't have a Masters.

If she does go to the UK she still has to pay uni fees, and any loans would have to be reimbursed. She is British, but I am married to a French person, who wouldn't be welcome in the UK. Plus we have his kids 50/50 so why would he want to live in the UK. It's a bit of an unwinnable situation.

I have paid tax in the UK for most of my life, even when not living there, so along the line I have definitely paid more in than I have got out of it.

But anyway, judge away.

I think we all want the best for our children, and at times think we know better than them. But the choices have always been hers. All the way through her life. But if I can show her paths that she might not have thought of, why wouldn't I?

OP posts:
LillianGish · 06/02/2022 17:57

It seems a bloody huge admin mountain to her when added to her revision and school work - it is! Having been through the process twice, I wouldn't hesitate the recommend a gap year @Wallywobbles. Especially as your DD won't be 18 until October. She can focus on getting the best results possible in the Bac, see what she get and then apply with results in her pocket when she will have a clearer idea (certainly in the case of UK universities) of where she is likely to be accepted. This way she will have more time to think about exactly where she wants to go and what she wants to do. With the benefit of hindsight I wish my DD had done this - being bilingual gives you options, which is a good thing, but also makes the choice more baffling. She was put off having a gap year because of all the discouraging noises coming from the French school, but really she needed more time to consider her options. It all worked out for the best in the end, but it was a gruelling false start. Two years later, DS reaped the benefit of hindsight from all her mistakes to make much clearer choices and swanned off to his first choice of Birmingham quite happily.

Original poster
Wallywobbles · 06/02/2022 18:13

@LillianGish that seems like eminently sensible advice.

OP posts:
rifling · 06/02/2022 18:14

I think you've got a flipping cheek asking for British funding to attend a British university when it's never been your children's home!
Angry I think it's more of a flipping cheek to take away my rights in a referendum in which I was not even allowed a vote - and which cost me and others like me (many of us British tax payers) thousands of pounds and years of stress. I think being able to pay home fees for a few years is the very least they could do.

SeasonFinale · 06/02/2022 20:44

Goldsmiths seems a very different choice to her others. It wouldn't feature in preferred unis for Law. Is it because it offers the joint English/French? If there is a possibility that she may want to practise in England she may want to consider a more highly regarded uni (for law). Bear in mind whilst at uni she may meet her future partner and end up wanting to stay over here.