Dual French /UK National studying law in UK advice needed.

[Wallywobbles]

Hi

DD and I are looking for some information about her options. On another thread, I was told that she should be eligible for home fees as she is a British citizen even though is ordinarily resident in France. We will contact SFE to see if she is eligible for loans. She has savings that cover the first 2 years of fees if they are home fees level.

DD is about to finish her French Bac. She's predicted pretty good grades 15.5 +, and we have been looking at her doing a LLB in English and French Law. Currently, she is pretty certain that she wants to practice in France.

I am keen for her to avoid doing the first 2 years in a French Uni doing law because I think she will be eaten alive. As a result, my first choice is LLB Kings, 2 years at Kings and 2 years at the Sorbonne, which means she comes out with a Masters 1. She needs 16+ at the BAC to get in though. And as yet no offer has been received. She did her LNAT, but we don't have the result yet, but Kings do have them.

She has had a pretty comfortable offer from Goldsmiths, which is currently her first choice, but they are saying that she will need to pay international fees which means it is unaffordable. She likes the criminology and human rights aspects. This is a 3-year UK degree, with no French bit, so I am uncertain if she would then be able to do a Masters in Droit in France, or whether she would then need to do a redo a third year of Licence in France.

We have 4 to put through uni in quick succession and she is the first, so we cannot overstretch ourselves financially for one.

So current questions are, I think:

Is she really eligible for home fees (British but never lived there but lots of family there)?

She'll only be 17 (October birthday) at the start. Does she really need a visa?

Is Goldsmiths worth the money?

Would she have a good time at Kings (she's not overly impressed by the website)?

Would you take a gap year if you were her? She's suddenly gone cold on the idea - not sure if it's due to covid, or the French attitude to gap years, or if it's leaving her boyfriend (she denies this).

Thank you for any help.

www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/law-firms-preferred-universities-2019

I think you've got a flipping cheek asking for British funding to attend a British university when it's never been your children's home!

Fuck off with that attitude. Did you also think it was a cheek for EU doms to pay UK Home fees?

https://www.qmul.ac.uk/undergraduate/coursefinder/courses/2022/english-and-french-law/

This would be worth a look - a little below Kings but definitely above Goldsmiths. Assuming London is the draw.

@Justkeeppedaling

You seem to be playing a major role in organising the rest of your DDs life. How about you leave the research to her, and let her decide where she wants to study? It was your choice to have 4 children - you must have known you'd have to put them all through university at some point.

I think you've got a flipping cheek asking for British funding to attend a British university when it's never been your children's home!

My British child will also be going to the UK (where she's never lived) for university. Thankfully I've paid taxes and NI there for nigh on 40 years. With my British money. You ignorant fool.

For fees you would have to prove that you have been ordinarily resident in both countries which you definitely can be. There are many things that universities take into consideration and look at it holistically rather than just one aspect.

Surely the question is: what undergrad law degree is accepted in France? A year in France is part of a degree making it 4 years and not 3. Is that actuality qualifying to enable DD to get the equivalent of a training contract in France?

I know a young man who has a degree in law from a South African uni. Wrong law for the uk! He’s decided to start all over again with a law degree from a uk university. So would she be employable in France with a uk law degree with some French law? The young man I know didn’t need to do a full degree all over again but he’s very bright and very ambitious so he’s made his expensive decision! I would say that your DD might need to investigate further. How will she qualify to get trained to practice in France with a degree from a uk university? Is it trying to circumvent the French law degree low pass rate?

UCL and Kings are best for Law in London.

OP- re the finance, as I said on the other thread, contact both Student Finance (who were all working from home when I spoke to them on the phone, but very helpful once you get through)
I contacted one of dd's university choices before SF and they said first you need to speak to SF. SF then confirmed what I'd understood from the legislation, that British Citizens in the EU are considered as Home Students until 2028. This was ADDED to the studying in the UK/finance legislation late last summer as these students fell through a gap between the chairs as it were. No residence or domicile for tax purposes is required, or mentioned. The student simply needs to have been resident in the EU for 3 years and be British. I went back to the universities (who said "oh, right") and asked for a copy of my and dd's BC ppt. They then confirmed that in line with the legislation, DD would be a home student.

There are many places where this is an option see this UCAS list Is she fixated on London? Personally I would take some time now travel restrictions have lifted and go and have a look at some universities so she can get a feel for where she might like to study. London is a great city, but the student experience there is not typical and is also very expensive (which may be a consideration if you have three others following hard on her heels).

I've just realised she is due to start this year. In which case you've left it a bit late to consider options. Or are you looking at clearing in which case you have to factor in who is likely to actually be in clearing.

Or is this for 2023 entry?

I took it to mean she has already applied, has an offer from Goldsmiths but is waiting to hear still from KCL and unsure whether she has a Birmingham offer or whether she is still waiting to hear back from them too.

She's already applied and she chose just 3 unis. King, Goldsmiths and Birmingham.

Initially she was thinking gap year and 2023 entry but she changed her mind very recently about the gap year. Not entirely sure why. And she's not given me an answer that I really understand either.

We went briefly through the Times Good Uni guide yesterday which has cooled her ardor for Goldsmiths.

The LLB English and French law really does give her the French Masters 1 level in French law so she will be able to continue to Master 2 and practice here (in France). But how many of us really end up doing what we thought we would?

www.kcl.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/english-law-and-french-law-llb

My current zen thinking is it would be a good opportunity if she chooses to proceed. Good, enriching, challenging environment for her personal and professional development. A plus for her CV. And it's her life!

She's also doing the parcoursup (French equivalent of UCAS) route. She's getting a fine education in paperwork and form filling. As am I.

@LillianGish id like her to visit some unis but we'd need to all of them in one go. Is that possible or do we have yo do open days?

Not sure how it works post-Covid, but we visited mainly without open days for similar reasons to you. If you can phone up and make an appointment with someone in a department that might be handy, but we managed to talk to people in Bristol, Exeter, Warwick, Leeds and Sheffield just by turning up (maybe we just got lucky). To be honest, you can find out a lot online, but a visit gives you the feel of a place. Lots of French being spoken around the campus both times we went to Exeter for example. Also you can get the feeling of the campus in relation to the town - whether you even want to be on a campus or if you prefer something spread around the city. I see Birmingham is one of your DD's choices - funnily enough that was one my DS had never visited (he couldn't visit any due to Covid, but had seen loads with his sister two years previously so he knew he wanted a campus). I would strongly recommend visiting if she doesn't know the city. DS was absolutely blown away when he arrived for his first day - stunning campus, enough international students for him to feel at home great facilities. Also surprisingly easy to access from Paris - direct flights and train station on the campus.

It may be worth her adding in another 2 choices even though she has missed the equal consideration date.

@Wallywobbles just wondered how your DD was getting on and whether she was happy with her LNAT score

Results came through. She got 22 which isn't high enough I'd guess (I think they look for 26) but she'd only done one practice paper so she did ok.

Your DD should also check out degree programmes in countries such as Ireland or The Netherlands.

BCL (Hons) Law with French Law
www.myucd.ie/courses/law/law-with-french-law/

LLB in International and European Law
www.rug.nl/bachelors/international-and-european-law/

I'm.sure I read an article that the Netherlands runs some courses in English. It was an article about fees.

Well she left this morning at 7am to take her driving test. It's such a big year in terms of learning to adult. Hopefully she'll pass and that one less thing to do.

No news from kings. I looked briefly at ucas and the dates for late applications are very specific but I seem to think it's not quite yet. I think UCL would be a good option. Not sure what else.

The key is she thinks she wants to end up practicing law in France so I don't want that to end up being more complicated, which is the beauty of Kings.

@ArnoldBee

I'm.sure I read an article that the Netherlands runs some courses in English. It was an article about fees.

It does definitely. I have a few students from here in Italy studying in the Netherlands, courses in English, and my DD will also be applying to one for international relations. She's bilingual Italian/English.

22 is fine. The average this year is apparently 20 so she is above average at least. Hang on in there. Has she looked at seeing whether any others will take late applications? Or will she accept Birmingham if no Kings offer is forthcoming?

There are quite a few of us on MN who are lawyers in England. Goldsmiths is not where anyone would go in the UK if they wanted a legal career here as it does not have enough status and the list SF posted above www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/law-firms-preferred-universities-2019 gives a good indication of hte better regarded places for UK lawyers (and as France seems competitive too presumably French law firms would look at the status of the UK institution in hiring too). It sounds like King's may be out due to LNAT score but UCL might be in.

In England the competition comes during your degree (whether law or other degree) when you apply to law firms to sponsor your post grad studies in law. Also if she might want to practise in England it would be worthwhile studying a traditional qualifying law degree (which covers the core UK leal subjects like contract law, tort etc which not all UK law degrees to cover). Although she would be in the brand new UK SQE exam system for solicitors were she ever want to practise here it would be worth checking that the 2 years in England covers those core subjects. Do the same as regards France - check whether the degree is sufficient for the French purposes which I think you said above was so for stage 1 of the French system and also just as important if law firms in France hire people who go to UK universities for part of their degree. They might well but do check.

@Xenia thank you. That's very comprehensive. I just swanned into uni with no real idea or ambition. The French education system is one she & I have had to negotiate as novices.

I've always taught at HE so know more about the system but not how you actually get in. And obviously know less than nothing about becoming a lawyer. Though I could write a thesis on negotiating family courts in France.

It might be worth looking at whether French lawyers in the better firms do a law degree (I suspect they do but in the UK many people are surprised that 50% of those who go on to be London City lawyers read a different subject first for their degree and sometimes it is worth doing a different subject but getting into a better university to do it than law if you cannot get into the UK university for law). Perhaps ask some Parisian lawyers or it might even be something future trainee lawyers in France are told online.

It makes more sense if she wants to practice in France to go to a French uni. She would have to do additional years otherwise and that would increase her costs.