Dual French /UK National studying law in UK advice needed.

[Wallywobbles]

Hi

DD and I are looking for some information about her options. On another thread, I was told that she should be eligible for home fees as she is a British citizen even though is ordinarily resident in France. We will contact SFE to see if she is eligible for loans. She has savings that cover the first 2 years of fees if they are home fees level.

DD is about to finish her French Bac. She's predicted pretty good grades 15.5 +, and we have been looking at her doing a LLB in English and French Law. Currently, she is pretty certain that she wants to practice in France.

I am keen for her to avoid doing the first 2 years in a French Uni doing law because I think she will be eaten alive. As a result, my first choice is LLB Kings, 2 years at Kings and 2 years at the Sorbonne, which means she comes out with a Masters 1. She needs 16+ at the BAC to get in though. And as yet no offer has been received. She did her LNAT, but we don't have the result yet, but Kings do have them.

She has had a pretty comfortable offer from Goldsmiths, which is currently her first choice, but they are saying that she will need to pay international fees which means it is unaffordable. She likes the criminology and human rights aspects. This is a 3-year UK degree, with no French bit, so I am uncertain if she would then be able to do a Masters in Droit in France, or whether she would then need to do a redo a third year of Licence in France.

We have 4 to put through uni in quick succession and she is the first, so we cannot overstretch ourselves financially for one.

So current questions are, I think:

Is she really eligible for home fees (British but never lived there but lots of family there)?

She'll only be 17 (October birthday) at the start. Does she really need a visa?

Is Goldsmiths worth the money?

Would she have a good time at Kings (she's not overly impressed by the website)?

Would you take a gap year if you were her? She's suddenly gone cold on the idea - not sure if it's due to covid, or the French attitude to gap years, or if it's leaving her boyfriend (she denies this).

Thank you for any help.

It makes more sense if she wants to practice in France to go to a French uni. She would have to do additional years otherwise and that would increase her costs.

It makes more sense if she wants to practice in France to go to a French uni. She would have to do additional years otherwise and that would increase her costs.

@LillianGish can you give us some advice about accommodation at Birmingham. Her offer should be easy she needs 14 in English.
We were wondering what location is best. Or if there's something to avoid.

U.K. law is very different from French law. Our legal systems are completely different as well. Since she wants to practice law in France, I don’t understand why you want her to come to the UK and study two years of completely different laws and legal system. She’d only end up behind on studying French laws and legal system. I doubt she’d be able to get into a French Masters degree in law with a British degree.

Law isn’t like Medicine, it doesn’t transfer well between nations.

@EmpressCixi honestly if she does Kings it's 4 years: 2 UK, 2 at La Sorbonne. She finishes with a master 1 en droit. So a first year of Masters in France at which point she can continue her studies in France. So no disadvantages. And no extra time.

She avoids the hideous first 2 years of law in France which has approx only 10% of students making it into the second year. It's not like the UK where you just have to pass your exams. In France they only accept the top 10% into the second year.

If she goes to Birmingham she does 2 years in the UK, 1 year at French uni (more choice but options include La Sorbonne) and a final year in UK. She finishes with a Degree from the UK and a Licence en Droit. So she looses a year but she hopefully has a good time at uni. And she has the necessary qualifications to do her Masters in France.

Honestly I'm a lecturer at Uni here. So many of my first and second year students are having a miserable time trying to get through. The system here is not fit for purpose.

I think she will really benefit from spreading her wings. Particularly since she's no longer having a year off. I'm struggling to see a down side.

Hello @Wallywobbles. My DS was advised to live on The Vale and he is in Elgar Court. Good size kitchens with a sitting area and sofas and en-suite rooms (though he wasn’t particularly fixated on being en-suite - a good kitchen was his main criteria as he likes to cook). I don’t think anywhere is terrible - biggest factor is who you are sharing with really and you have no control over that. There are lots of good options on The Vale including catered and shared bathrooms (usually a bit cheaper if that’s a factor). I’m sure Pritchatts Park is also fine, but The Vale seems to be where a lot of stuff happens for first years - it’s a bit further from the sports pitches (where DS spends a lot of his time!) but that hasn’t bothered him. Did you manage to visit? Gorgeous campus - DS loves it.

@LillianGish not visited yet. And unlikely to be able to do it anytime soon. It's such a slog to get over at the moment and we haven't heard back from Kings yet. It would be good to hear back from both ideally before visiting.

And of course she may decide to stay in France!

I would suggest asking the same question on Two Fat Expats Facebook group but as a starting point all uni's reference the same documentation re home status and it's worth reading through thoroughly. We are outside the UK but not EU based and I found it hard to read through because so much of it is relating to scenarios post Brexit. Having one who secured home status pre Brexit and one applying this year I think the process has changed and info from even a couple of years ago may not be relevant.

Re accommodation, DS1 selected by proximity to teaching for his subject (Biochemistry) and got his first choice of Jarratt Hall (Selly Oak Village). One of his friends from school was in Chamberlain - the swish, then very new one with the tower block at the top of the Vale. Four years on, DD would have quite liked somewhere like Tennis Courts, but got her sixth choice, the then newly built Batteryy Park (also Selly Oak Village, but on the canalside the other side of Aldi from Jarratt and literally next door to the Sainsbury's in the retail park, which gave us hours of parking on dropping-off day, rather than the 20-minute slot I'd had at Jarratt. The proximity of Aldi (and the other ships on Bristol Road) was another attraction of Jarratt and the Selly Oak Village generally.

Neither wanted catered accommodation, although the system at Birmingham is less restrictive than the 'school dinners in your own block only' variety in some places and by the time DD started, had been changed to allow the amount on the card to roll over, rather than credit being reset to zero each week.

@Justkeeppedaling

You seem to be playing a major role in organising the rest of your DDs life. How about you leave the research to her, and let her decide where she wants to study? It was your choice to have 4 children - you must have known you'd have to put them all through university at some point.

I think you've got a flipping cheek asking for British funding to attend a British university when it's never been your children's home!

So rude. OPS kids plan to study give her a break at least it's productive unlike.....

@Wallywobbles - it’s nice to have the choice! I’ve got one here and one in the UK. If I’m honest though I think DS is getting so much more than a degree by choosing to make the move (living independently, cementing his English, fully absorbing some English culture rather than getting it all from DS and I - generally becoming the fully bilingual/binational person he should be). He was unable to visit before he took up his place, but found the virtual tours of the accommodation on the university website very useful when choosing which halls he preferred. He’s going into a house in Selly Oak next year which judging by the number of student houses in his road and the surrounding roads is practically an extension of the campus. It’s been much easier for him than friends who have gone to London where accommodation is much more expensive and far-flung.

Thanks @LillianGish She's looking at it all I in quite a positive light at the mo. Doesn't want to share a bathroom which is rather a costly preference.

ParcoursSup is a head fry IMHO.

I'm not expecting any of the others to go to the uk really but I think it's such a great experience I really hope she does.

ParcoursSup is a head fry IMHO I couldn't agree more @Wallywobbles - and all the juggling of waiting lists at the end even more so. Luckily DD got her first choice straightaway when she reapplied after a year out. Some of DS's friends ended up with nothing last year. Re.sharing a bathroom - does she have her own bathroom at home? The halls of residence en-suites are so tiny (around the size of one we had once an overnight ferry) that a larger shared one can almost be preferable, but I can appreciate she may not be easily convinced of this. To be honest, we bit the bullet with accommodation costs on the basis that DS doesn't come home in term times (most home students will go home for occasional weekends - some even take their washing home!) - in any case everything is much cheaper in Birmingham than London. So glad she is feeling positive - I think it will be great wherever she goes.

En suite in a London hall is usually a fearsome price! DDs was nearly £8000 and that was 9 years ago.

There are quite a few of us on MN who are lawyers in England. Goldsmiths is not where anyone would go in the UK if they wanted a legal career here as it does not have enough status

Big law firms are much more open to different universities now especially with a bilingual/binational background. And one of the partners in my team at work (which is very well known and well regarded, though not Magic Circle) went to Goldsmiths.

However, I know nothing about the SQE.

I had a friend at uni who did Law and French with a year in Poitiers and she ended up returning to France and works there as a lawyer.

Just to update. Not accepted for Kings. Predicted grade is 15 which is too low so not an actual surprise. I expect she will get higher.

Birmingham had already become her first choice as it looks lovely. She seems pretty committed to going. With parcoursup as her backup plan.

I'm pleased as I think she'll be better suited to campus life and obviously it's a ton less expensive than London.

It's more than 20 years on now but your daughter seems to be going through a similar process to me. I wanted to do the King's course, which at the time was the only one in the U.K. offering 2+2 but didn't get it. I ended up doing law with French at Birmingham instead. At the time that gave an LLB plus a diploma in French legal studies and there was no choice of French uni. It was a good, if demanding, course back then, and Birmingham is a good solid red brick uni choice. Good luck to your daughter!

How good is your daughter's English? It's one thing to be comfortable speaking it at home but another writing essays, taking part in debates etc. Talking of debating, it's not something that is widely done in French schools. Will she be comfortable with this?
Also selection in French unis mostly takes place at the end of the first year ( the parcoursup one is not that strict), hence the low success rates. Selection in British unis happen at the time of applying.

Birmingham will be a good choice. Does she have an offer from them?

Also be careful about people citing one member of staff with a degree from Goldsmiths. Recruitment processes might not be university biased but the students from the top universities still get most of the best training contracts. They end up being better at the selection tests! One swallow does not a summer make!

@OneCup her English is absolutely perfect.

@TizerorFizz her offer is 16 in French which she has and 14 in English which shouldn't be an issue. Her average is 19+/20 for continuous assessment. The mark is 40% continuous assessment 60% exam.

@OneCup she did the LNAT and did as well or better than me on the one practice paper. I'm English, and a uni teacher. She can and does argue with the mirror and debates like you've never seen. She's also had a higher than normal amount of time in court.

That's great! That would have been my reservation.
I cannot comment on the law side of things so will leave it to experts!

even if it wasn't, it wouldn't matter. I did my course with someone whose first language was Welsh, he'd not done any English language medium education at all. He still got a good degree! Not sure what he is doing now, I don't think he became a solicitor, he may have become a teacher in the end!

Talking of debating, it's not something that is widely done in French schools. Will she be comfortable with this is it widely done in English/UK schools? Not in my experience.

Sorry just to jump in here with another similar question. We have a house in France and hope to move back there in the future (eu dual nationality). DS starts Uni in 2023. He wants to do medicine so a 5 year course. I thought we would have to wait til he finishes in 2028 but after reading this thread am I correct in thinking that if we move to France once he has started Uni in the UK it will not alter his eligibility to claim student finance? This is great for me and DH if that is the case🌈