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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Medicine 2022 - Decision time!

999 replies

Monkey2001 · 27/01/2022 14:26

Support thread for aspiring medics.

We want all our DCs to succeed, whatever their school type. We share knowledge to help them to achieve their goals, celebrate success and support if things don't go well.

Lots of interviews now done, fingers crossed for lots of offers, but we know it is a tough year and that most applicants will have a bumpy ride. Best of luck everyone!

Previous thread - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/higher_education/a4358647-Medicine-2022-entry?msgid=114590369#114590369

2023 applicant thread - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/higher_education/4459778-Medicine-2023-Entry

OP posts:
bimkom · 12/04/2022 09:54

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne

Just to defend UKWPMED to some extent, only two of the six member schools (Birmingham & Hull York) require offers to be firmed to get the reduced-grade offer. Brighton & Sussex, Keele, Manchester and Plymouth will honour the reduced offer for firm and insurance choices.

I'm not making excuses for Birmingham and Hull York, especially as Birmingham isn't very up-front about its requirement for offers to be firmed (although Hull York is: www.hyms.ac.uk/medicine/applying/ukwpmed), but I wouldn't like to think of prospective applicants' being deterred from applying to the other four.

Yes, I have been singularly unimpressed with Birmingham. Their calculator on their web page says "likely to get an interview" when if you use a bit of common sense, it is absolutely clear that there is no hope. We swerved Birmingham because it was obvious to me that with a 7 in English Literature (his only 7, every other GCSE was higher), and a school not on the contextual list, there was no way DS would get an interview, but most DC don't have the analytical skills of a trained lawyer. So many DC we know were misled and didn't get to interview.

In fact I spent Thursday night at the "careers fair" at the (state) school DS went to until the end of GCSEs and that DD is still at. And while I was there officially to talk to the students about law, I was chatting before it started to the representative doctor, and she said that her problem was that while she could talk about being a consultant, what everybody wanted to know about was how to apply, and it was so long ago for her, that the system has completely changed. "Oh", said I, "send them to me! I can't tell them about whether or not they should want to be a doctor, but I can tell them all about the application process". So I ended up talking to a whole bunch of students either about what it is like to work as a lawyer or about the medical application process!
And these DC really don't have a clue and there is clearly nobody to help them (I sent an email afterwards to the careers co-ordinator offering my services, as clearly having had one DS go through the process and having kept an eye on things this year I am an expert). My DS bailed out of this school for A levels, feeling it was not going to give him the support he needed for a medical application (we agreed that if he passed the exams and interview for the highly selective private school he had his heart set on, we would find the money for two years of private school). And just talking to these kids and their parents, he was absolutely right, they have no clue, and none of the support that for example, @mumsneedwine gives.
And one particular issue that came up was that when dealing with a DD, while most parents were happy for them to apply to medicine (it is a caring profession after all), there were cases where they were only prepared to let them apply to London medical schools, so they could continue to live at home. Which means that applying selectively means choosing the best four out of five! Some of this might be related to cost (investing in a DS's career is more acceptable, and there is a wedding to save for in the case of a DD), but also that the expectation remains that a DD will get married during medical school, and will then shoulder all the burdens that go with that, while a DS can be older. Marriages are more difficult to arrange if a DD is not living at home (not to mention the fear of what might happen to a DD away from home and what that might do to her and/or her reputation).
Birmingham might have been one of the more acceptable alternatives if pushed (at least for DSs), given the community structures there, but I had to tell them their chances of getting in were low and it was likely not worth the application. The school is very, very mixed, financially and otherwise, and it does get very good results, which is presumably why it is not on the Birmingham contextual list, but there are lots of issues that don't get solved simply by getting top notch results.

mumsneedwine · 12/04/2022 10:04

@bimkom 😊 that's exactly how I got started doing this ! Learned from my own DD, realised not everyone had her support (she was at a b large 6th form college), so started offering it myself at my school (& several other local ones).

bimkom · 12/04/2022 10:10

@ClarasZoo

Can I please ask a question to all you wise people. DD applying for dentistry. She had one interview and we are waiting to hear on that one. By all accounts, it seems likely that she may be placed on a waiting list. She has an offer for a non dentistry subject, Biology at a uni she would like (say, Sheffield - not but I don't want too many identifying details). I think she can stay on the waiting list for dentistry but she may not find out till much later in the year if she has succeeded. Meanwhile, is it correct that she can't accept Sheffield as an insurance? If, eventually, she does not get a dentistry place then it would be too late to go for Sheffield in clearing I think. This seems unfair. So is it correct that you have to gamble on a wait list place and can have no insurance place? Help!
Hi @ClarasZoo. That is my understanding of this (it is the way it works for medicine, and I suspect dentistry is no different). The only thing is, are you sure that Biology at somewhere like Sheffield won't be in clearing? My understanding is that most of these courses generally are, and that if you were to phone up eg Sheffield on the day, you have a pretty reasonable chance of getting in. The other thing to say is what they keep saying regarding medicine, which is, if your heart is set on dentistry, don't accept another offer, take a gap year, get some suitable work experience, and reapply. I think i saw on The Student Room a bunch of people who had done this for dentistry, had got jobs in dental practices, and then reapplied with a better success rate. I am less certain about this than medicine - anybody know more about dentistry? (it would be helpful for me too to understand how similar the process is for dentisty and medicine, because I got asked as a consequence of the careers fair about some one in exactly your DD's position regarding what to do - she hadn't even known that there were programmes available to help practice for UCAT, so she had done the few practices available on the site and then took it blind - so I was strongly advising her to have another go at UCAT with some proper practice from Medify or Medentry - her parents could afford that, just that neither she not they knew these existed, and there was nobody at school to help out and guide her in any way!)
NoNotHimTheOtherOne · 12/04/2022 10:58

And while I was there officially to talk to the students about law, I was chatting before it started to the representative doctor, and she said that her problem was that while she could talk about being a consultant, what everybody wanted to know about was how to apply, and it was so long ago for her, that the system has completely changed.

I face this all the time. Many schools (especially private, to be honest) only want consultants or GP partners to talk to their prospective medical students. But most year-11/12 students don't want to know details about what they'll be doing in 15 years' time: they want to know how to make a competitive medical school application. Because the schools don't want to invite admissions tutors if they're not doctors themselves (which about half aren't), the students receive limited useful information about applications from people who mostly went through the process several decades ago and often in a different country.

I was at a (state) school a few weeks ago where none of the year-11 students had heard of UCAT, despite being identified by the school as prospective medics/dentists.

opoponax · 12/04/2022 11:15

I learned a bit about dentistry as a close friend's DC went through the application process in parallel to my DS's medicine application in 2020/21. It seems to be very similar process to medicine and is also very competitive but with a much smaller number of dentistry schools to select from. I don't know the fine detail of strategic application, interview and offer rates etc. but there are parallels of for example Bristol being a UCAT-heavy school etc. The timetable in 2020/21 was broadly the same as the Medicine process regarding interview offers and place offers. There were the same MMI/Panel interview structures and I believe some overlap of generalised content between the two ie. focus on the skills you need to be a good dentist. One difference I noted was that dexterity/fine motor skills/multi-tasking was a usual MMI station (think complex paper folding exercise while explaining a detailed answer to a NHS question etc.) - important to assess as dentists are all effectively surgeons.

Regarding schools and help with applications, it is a huge issue and level of support seems to vary greatly from school to school and irrespective of sector. My DS and DD's grammars are really up on it, with
well managed and pro-active Medsocs and supporting a high number of medics and a few vets and dentists through each year. I have a friend with a DC in a (not top) public school and just assumed that they would have the same access to advice. I mentioned Medify and Medentry to her about three weeks before the DC sat their UCAT and the DC had no idea what they were.

There was a question on this thread a few weeks ago asking about fifth options and dentistry. I caveated an answer with not being a dentistry expert but relayed the standard advice was regarding medicine and fifth options. The poster replied that dentistry never went into clearing though. @mumsneedwine, who helps aspiring dentists as well, said that although that is true in a normal year, this is anything but a normal year.

notmedicmum · 12/04/2022 11:23

DD’s non grammar state school was pretty poor regarding advice on the medicine application process too. I don’t think the local private school is any better, tbh. I think unless you go to a grammar or a highly selective private school that historically have large numbers apply to medicine/dentistry/veterinary you have the same problem - which is why I am so grateful for the advice on this thread and thru tsr.

All the info to make a strategic good med school application is out there, you just have to be proactive as a parent/DC and look for it and not rely on schools…..

Harumff · 12/04/2022 12:54

@ClarasZoo

Can I please ask a question to all you wise people. DD applying for dentistry. She had one interview and we are waiting to hear on that one. By all accounts, it seems likely that she may be placed on a waiting list. She has an offer for a non dentistry subject, Biology at a uni she would like (say, Sheffield - not but I don't want too many identifying details). I think she can stay on the waiting list for dentistry but she may not find out till much later in the year if she has succeeded. Meanwhile, is it correct that she can't accept Sheffield as an insurance? If, eventually, she does not get a dentistry place then it would be too late to go for Sheffield in clearing I think. This seems unfair. So is it correct that you have to gamble on a wait list place and can have no insurance place? Help!
I can't specifically help with dentistry but my daughter has a similar situation with veterinary and has confirmed with the one uni that has her on their waiting list that she can firm her 5th choice and still be on their waiting list - they only remove them from the waiting list if they firm another veterinary choice. I got them to confirm this in writing to me in an email! It therefore might be worth asking the question of the uni as although there are similarities between medicine/dentistry/veterinary there are obviously subtle differences too.
bimkom · 12/04/2022 13:11

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne

And while I was there officially to talk to the students about law, I was chatting before it started to the representative doctor, and she said that her problem was that while she could talk about being a consultant, what everybody wanted to know about was how to apply, and it was so long ago for her, that the system has completely changed.

I face this all the time. Many schools (especially private, to be honest) only want consultants or GP partners to talk to their prospective medical students. But most year-11/12 students don't want to know details about what they'll be doing in 15 years' time: they want to know how to make a competitive medical school application. Because the schools don't want to invite admissions tutors if they're not doctors themselves (which about half aren't), the students receive limited useful information about applications from people who mostly went through the process several decades ago and often in a different country.

I was at a (state) school a few weeks ago where none of the year-11 students had heard of UCAT, despite being identified by the school as prospective medics/dentists.

Well most of the ones I talked to were in Year 12, nobody had identified them (they self identified by coming to the careers fair, asking about medical applications, and then being sent by the doctor to me) and only a handful seemed to know about UCAT and BMAT. I was kicking myself afterwards that I didn't talk about programmes available to practice on. It was only at the end that I ended up in a discussion with the DM of the wannabe dentistry student. I am sure the school would have loved a medicine admissions tutor - they had a few from the local universities, but not the kind that offer medicine or dentistry (much lower stakes courses - ex polytechnics). I am pretty sure that the doctor must somehow have had a connection to the school, as I do. I think the school took anybody and everybody who volunteered. But there was quite a bit of interest in medicine (more interest than in law, actually) at the mostly Year 12 level, although some of them were still in uniform, so presumably Year 11. Not sure how often that actually translates into medical applications or offers. Yes, DS's A level school was highly selective and traditionally does send quite a few to medicine, so it was really chalk and cheese. Medical society and the works. Although despite being pretty hot, they too got Birmingham wrong (Birmingham changed from having 25% contextual to including contextual points within the general algorithm DS's year, and while they claimed on the website that the numbers were not going to change dramatically, anybody who looked closely at the algorithm, as I did, could see that was unlikely to be true). So a number of DC from DS's A Level school wasted an application on BIrmingham as they didn't get an interview (but mostly got in somewhere else). So moral of the story is, do make sure that you do your own research and are up to date.
mumsneedwine · 12/04/2022 13:18

@ClarasZoo I agree with everything that's been said. Get it in writing from the Uni that she can stay on the waiting list & accept the biology offer. It should all be fine.
On 19th May all waiting list offers will turn into rejections on UCAS - don't panic ! DCs are still on the Uni list. Just a procedure thing (which is always a bit scary, and terrible timing as right in middle of exams 🤬).
This year has been exceptionally horrible. So many wait lists, so few actual offers. Not over until results day !

mumsneedwine · 12/04/2022 13:19

@bimkom I think you have found a new role 😊.

ClarasZoo · 12/04/2022 14:23

Thank you for all the advice!

Daisysway · 12/04/2022 17:12

Could it be that Bhams Med/Dentistry offers are not set in stone.

Dds friend from 2020 cohort has a Dentistry offer this year which she throughly deserves. Her GCSEs are good but did include a few 7s. She like many others at dds school (private) had extremely rough deal e.g the school really did go off mocks to set CAGS and the schools mocks were always set at a high level.. So this girl was awarded a C in Chemistry and a B in Biology but achieved A stars in the October sat exams of 2020!

Fortunately her parents run successful dental practices (NHS and Cosmetic), so shes taken 2yrs out worked for her parents and reapplied and been offered a place at Bham... Shes very worthy offer holder will make a wonderful Dentist...but its taken 2 yrs to get that offer!

bimkom · 12/04/2022 18:13

@Daisysway

Could it be that Bhams Med/Dentistry offers are not set in stone.

Dds friend from 2020 cohort has a Dentistry offer this year which she throughly deserves. Her GCSEs are good but did include a few 7s. She like many others at dds school (private) had extremely rough deal e.g the school really did go off mocks to set CAGS and the schools mocks were always set at a high level.. So this girl was awarded a C in Chemistry and a B in Biology but achieved A stars in the October sat exams of 2020!

Fortunately her parents run successful dental practices (NHS and Cosmetic), so shes taken 2yrs out worked for her parents and reapplied and been offered a place at Bham... Shes very worthy offer holder will make a wonderful Dentist...but its taken 2 yrs to get that offer!

Dentistry might well be different from Medicine in terms of what they require, they are completely different parts of the university. Also the 7s might not have been in the sciences and/or for English language and English Literature. Birmingham is, I think, unique in scoring not only English language, but English Literature as one of their required GCSEs . If DS could have substituted Art or MFL or any of the other GCSEs he took for English Literature in the scoring, he would have had maximum points in the GCSE calculations (at Nottingham the year he applied, they also scored English Language as well as the Sciences/Maths and three other GCSEs, so he was fine, because he just didn't count the English Literature). This year of course, because the GCSEs were all TAGs, a lot of medical schools have discounted them (although not Birmingham it seems), and presumably that will be the same coming up next year. Anybody done the research yet? @Opoponax? But it is looking like no TAGs this year, so for 2024 entry those that have dropped them as a scoring tool might go back to scoring GCSEs (although there will be a lot of gap year students with TAGs, so alternatively they might wait a few years for those to filter through the system).
opoponax · 12/04/2022 18:44

I had only heard about Oxford discounting GCSEs for med applications this past cycle @Bimkom. We attended an Oxbridge event with DD a few weeks ago and they pointedly said that GCSE performance would be significant for applications in the coming year (they were talking generally not med-specific though).

Monkey's latest spreadsheet on UCAT thresholds shows GCSEs remaining part of the formula for a number of med schools in the current cycle (Aston, Birmingham, Cardiff, Dundee, Edinburgh, HYMS, King's, Leicester, Lincoln, Nottingham, QUB). I wasn't aware of any changes to this but I have just been dipping in and out this year as DD is not applying until this coming cycle.

DD has started her own research but we will wait until she has done her UCAT and then see where she is positioned before drilling down to the detail of any changes I think. Just in case there are further changes! Trying not to influence her and she wants to start from first principles rather than follow her brother's line of thought.She is still open-minded about Oxbridge and is doing a taster to find out more. She has already discounted London med schools on the basis of them being on the doorstep.

bimkom · 12/04/2022 19:47

@opoponax

I had only heard about Oxford discounting GCSEs for med applications this past cycle *@Bimkom*. We attended an Oxbridge event with DD a few weeks ago and they pointedly said that GCSE performance would be significant for applications in the coming year (they were talking generally not med-specific though).

Monkey's latest spreadsheet on UCAT thresholds shows GCSEs remaining part of the formula for a number of med schools in the current cycle (Aston, Birmingham, Cardiff, Dundee, Edinburgh, HYMS, King's, Leicester, Lincoln, Nottingham, QUB). I wasn't aware of any changes to this but I have just been dipping in and out this year as DD is not applying until this coming cycle.

DD has started her own research but we will wait until she has done her UCAT and then see where she is positioned before drilling down to the detail of any changes I think. Just in case there are further changes! Trying not to influence her and she wants to start from first principles rather than follow her brother's line of thought.She is still open-minded about Oxbridge and is doing a taster to find out more. She has already discounted London med schools on the basis of them being on the doorstep.

Well Nottingham changed their whole way of calculating admissions for this year, and while they did not eliminate GCSEs as a factor, it was severely discounted compared with last year. I assume that had to to with TAGs. Also as best I can see, Liverpool this year ranked solely based on UCAT (anybody who applied there, is that right?). Last year it used GCSEs as part of its scoring system. Again presumably this is in response to TAGs.
bimkom · 12/04/2022 19:48

The annoying thing about Oxford was they changed their criteria after the application date, while these others changed in time for people to know and adjust accordingly.

opoponax · 12/04/2022 20:01

Yes, Nottingham stated as only 21% GCSE this year and it has traditionally been very GCSE-heavy. I don't know of anyone on the thread whose DC applied to Liverpool but Monkey's sheet says purely UCAT this year. It is annoying that Oxford changed their criteria after the application date. I couldn't quite see the logic of it when everything was then based on a wobbly BMAT process that was flawed for the second year running.

notmedicmum · 12/04/2022 21:04

DD applied to Liverpool and they used only the UCAT score to determine who to interview

mumsneedwine · 12/04/2022 21:11

Let's not mention the BMAT. V v bad for my blood pressure.
This year has been a bit nuts all round. Hopefully Unis will revert to normal next year - think Notts will keep the new scoring though.

opoponax · 12/04/2022 21:25

Sorry @medicmum I remember now you said your DD applied to Liverpool.

HoneyMobster · 12/04/2022 21:59

I wouldn't be surprised if Oxford discount GCSEs again next year.

opoponax · 12/04/2022 22:42

@HoneyMobster do you know if they were discounted across the board for all subjects this year or was it specifically for medicine? Just wondering as the discounting wasn't mentioned at all at the (non-med specific) Oxbridge admissions event we recently attended. The Oxford representative explicitly said that stellar performance in GCSEs is very important to their application. Confused

HoneyMobster · 13/04/2022 06:58

@opoponax - I only know about Medicine. DD applied to Oxford this year rather than Cambridge because she had 'perfect' GCSEs and thought they'd add value to her application. It turned out that theoretically they made no difference as selection for interview was undertaken on the basis of contextualised BMAT. I say theoretically because maybe colleges did look at her overall profile at some point.

I have a DS who may apply to Oxford in the coming year (not Medicine) and I've told him that the admissions test is going to be key and whilst his GCSEs are great I think there are too many similarly qualified candidates to make much difference.

coffeemorecoffee · 13/04/2022 14:04

Still waiting on keele They seem to have sent out a lot of rejections today.

Nightowlpossibly · 13/04/2022 18:13

DD got a Leicester offer today. They seem to be making offers as places become available with other applicants firming elsewhere as she didn’t get an outright offer when they first gave them out. She thought she did really badly and wouldn’t get an offer at all so she is pleased.

She now has to choose between Sheffield or Leicester.