Medicine 2022 - Decision time!

[Monkey2001]

Support thread for aspiring medics.

We want all our DCs to succeed, whatever their school type. We share knowledge to help them to achieve their goals, celebrate success and support if things don't go well.

Lots of interviews now done, fingers crossed for lots of offers, but we know it is a tough year and that most applicants will have a bumpy ride. Best of luck everyone!

Previous thread - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/higher_education/a4358647-Medicine-2022-entry?msgid=114590369#114590369

2023 applicant thread - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/higher_education/4459778-Medicine-2023-Entry

@BabbleBee unlikely I'm afraid as they will already be full. Would she even do Biomed ? If the answer is no, and she's try again next year, then decision is made.
I know several students who had AAA as firm and insurance and got in with AAB at their insurance.

A bit of a divergent option, but if her offer is ABB, missing that offer suggests BBB or lower.

There is quite a lot of maths and science in medicine. Perhaps the school’s view is that if the DC can’t make the offer grades they might struggle with medicine.

We don’t know the context but the school might have a point, and they will know more about her academic potential than most. Contextual offers are great, as long as the DC is able to keep pace with peers. If not it can be very difficult for the DC concerned.

@Needmoresleep I think we all agree that Bs can mean very different things depending on the context in which they were achieved. The med schools themselves are surely far better placed to take the view on whether someone would cope with a medicine degree as they have the in-depth knowledge to know how much maths/science is actually required on the course - many schools won't. The schools making the conditional offers have also made an assessment of the candidate on the basis of many things, not just their A Level grades. This logic suggests that it is best to keep as many medicine offers as possible and let the medical schools decide whether they are taking the DC or not once their A Level results come out. I think it is far more likely to be that the school is giving out generic advice and isn't processing just how difficult these medicine offers are to come by, particularly this year.

I did acknowledge context in my post.

I was essentially replying to the "her college need shouting at ! Do not, under any circumstances insure the Biomed offer. Madness !!!! " theme.

The DC has an offer for ABB. The college is advising that she insure with a biomed offer. They could feel that ABB might prove a stretch and that she may be better off with an insurance offer that might deliver. This might be good advice. I don't think we know, which is why I felt there was room for a dissenting view.

DD witnessed first hand a mature student with a contextual offer struggling during the first year of medicine. Her peers did what they could to help, but the student ended up repeating the year and I am not sure if they then were able to progress. In contrast some of the best students in the year came via the foundation programme. Context.

All the students at my school get a BBB offer from Newcastle. None have ever had a problem completing their degree.
Contextual offers are there to even out the playing field. Much easier to get that A if in a class of 5. My A level classes this year are 28 so they have to sink or swim a bit.
@BabbleBee please get your DD to think v hard before accepting a Biomed offer. Graduate medicine is incredibly hard and incredibly expensive.

But from what you have said, your school is in a particularly deprived part of the country. We don't know too much about OP's DC's educational background. I do not understand your point about classes for five, which would sound unusual even in the private sector. The mature student DD knew had studied in a FE college in an obviously deprived area. I have no idea what class sizes she had but she did well to get to medical school, so a real pity that she ended up struggling.

Grades can be very different to potential. A grade B for some will be at the limit of their potential and they may find it hard to take the step up to University level study, others not. We just don't know. We do know however that some of the first year maths and science can be tricky, as can the volume. It is very easy to slam schools and teachers, but some will know what they are doing. This might be the case here.

If the student would take the Biomed offer then it may be worth using as insurance. But if they want to be a doctor, and have managed 3 offers this year, then accepting it is a waste of time, regardless of grades.
Many Unis will accept a dropped grade if they have gone through the interview process and liked you, so doubling your chances of this happening often works out.
To get a contextual offer they must be eligible for one so are most likely not at a top private school 😊.

No college/school with any knowledge of medicine would recommend a non medicine back up if the student won't take it anyway.
@BabbleBee DD has 3 offers. She must be an outstanding candidate who Unis think can do medicine regardless of all those As, hence the ABB offer. PS : UCAS v much frown on offers that are different if you firm them - might be worth a chat with said Uni about this as they may change it if politely challenged 😊

@BabbleBee this might be useful reading

amp.theguardian.com/education/2022/mar/07/universities-advised-against-conditional-unconditional-admission-offers

Newcastle also takes students with the 'wrong' A Levels and turns them into doctors and the Newcastle course is practically identical to Bristol's. Suggests it's all achievable without top notch science and maths A Levels.

From what Babble has said earlier on the thread her DD has dealt with rather a lot alongside her A levels and achieving 3 med school offers this year. This is also context.

There are students who struggle from all different walks in life and many who fly. That is the data which is more indicative than individual stories.

@opoponax I have a Newcastle offer holder this year with French, Drama and History A levels. I have no idea how Newcastle do it !

I guess if you can get the UCAT score they need for Newcastle, they believe that the potential is there for the cross over.

That might be the difference. DD got into Bristol when they did not require UCAT or BMAT. Very few of her friends would get in now. Most are doing well. The girl who struggled was perhaps the exception to the rule. Somewhere there are stats on drop out rates, which presumably show that Newcastle are getting it right.

I was just going to say (as somebody whose DC are non contextual) that I think it is outrageous that medical schools are making the contextual offers contingent on them being firmed.
If it is appropriate for them to have a contextual offer, it is appropriate, and it should make absolutely no difference whether the offer is firmed or insured. If anything, it is taking advantage of people who might have less have confidence in their own ability than those that are non contextual. I don't see why this is any better than the unconditional offers that I thought had pretty much been outlawed.

@bimkom it is very frowned on and the code of practice says it's unethical. Why I think @BabbleBee 's DD should question it. I have an inkling they may then offer it even if not firmed - they will not want it made public !

Ok, whoa…. Wasn’t expecting this. I’ll try and address what’s been said but at the same time I feel like I’m justifying her entrance to med school…

DD has completed a UKWPMED programme which is why she has a reduced offer, it isn’t contextual. She obviously had to meet criteria to get into BrightMed which she did as a young carer. BrightMed have never had any concerns about her ability to be a doctor either academically or personally. They are very quick to remove anyone who isn’t coping with their course, and her reference from them was nothing short of glowing.

For those who are questioning her reduced offer, it is an agreement between 5 universities who all offer the same - if they attend 100% of the programme and apply to those unis they get a guaranteed interview. If successful at interview they get reduced offer on the one they firm, but only for that. The uni they insure is normal grades. DD didn’t get the guaranteed interview at one of them, but interviewed and was offered at 3 others. Again, this is an alternative offer but it is not contextual.

DD has had poor advice from college, which has been ironed out here and going back to college to ask questions. As @opoponax correctly recalled, DD has had a difficult time (which I’m not going into) hugely affecting her end of year 1 exams. College based predicted grades from this and were (rightly) concerned about final grades. As it stands, it looks like she’s worked hard enough to get what she needs but college remain cautious, despite topic tests looking good. I don’t know for sure but agree this could have influenced their advice to insure Biomed and she / I doesn’t 100% trust what they’re saying due to previous poor advice which is why I came back here. Completely regretting that now to be honest.

Oh dear @BabbleBee I'm so sorry you're regretting posting. I think people are all trying to be helpful but you're right that your dd's situation is not the norm so much of the advice we've thrown your way is probably irrelevant/ unhelpful.

What I'm absolutely sure is that your dd 100% deserves her offers and place at med school and it sounds like she'll make a fantastic, resilient and high achieving doctor. The challenges she's already faced successfully are greater than most people ever meet, let alone the majority of 'mainstream' med students.

@BabbleBee you have absolutely nothing to justify and I'm really very sorry that you are upset.

I think the facts are:-

(1) Your DD has achieved three medical school offers in a particularly difficult year. It doesn't matter what the background to these offers is. She must be an outstanding candidate to have achieved this. There is NO question mark over whether she has the potential to make a good doctor. Three medical schools have decided that she will so I think we can take their word for it.

(2) I appreciate the ensuing debate must be a bit disconcerting when you are in the middle of it but posters are generally being very supportive. They are just trying to help your DD optimise her chances of securing a medicine place. It is quite normal on here for someone to raise a specific question and the conversation widen out to more general debate (this particular one broadened out as far as Newcastle, where I don't think your DD even applied, so best just ignore all that)

(3) I understand the situation is complicated by the specific situation. That's why I suggested your DD (or you) contact GANFYD or Ecolier on TSR to get their take on it. Of course they will not be able to know if your DD will hit grades or not but they will have come across similar situations I'm sure. If the college has given poor advice before, I just would not rely on what they say without seeking expert external advice.

(4) Ultimately the decision is, of course, your DD's. It is her future and her judgement must be pretty good to have got this far.

Wishing her the very best of luck with it all.

Sorry cross post @Haffdonga - think we are saying the same thing.

@BabbleBee I think your DD sounds awesome snd fully deserves all her offers. She sounds like she'll make an amazing doctor as has loads of personal experience to bring to the profession.
Still hate offers that are lower if firmed. Naughty Uni. Not fair or kind.

BTW while Babblebee's DD's contextual offer might be an unusual one, I have seen enough people on TSR with the same dilemma (ie contextual, prefer one uni, lose their contextual offer if they don't firm another), that it seems to be really rather common. It isn't specific to Babblebee's DD. And there are other DC at the moment going through the same issue and posting on TSR (prefer UCL, scared to firm it because they lose their contextual offer at Birmingham, for example). That aspect is common, and seem to me to be morally wrong.
And even in Babblebee's DDs case. The contextual offer is a reward for all she went through, given with good reason. Why should it matter that it is used as insurance rather than firm? Seems wrong.

@bimkom totally agree. I fight this every year for my students. So much so weirdly our school doesn't get it anymore - all WP offers are just offers. It makes me so angry as it negates the WP programme as puts pressure on.
It's still too widespread despite the new code of practice. Needs clamping down on. An offer should be an offer. Full stop.
@BabbleBee sorry we went off topic. Happens a lot !

Just to defend UKWPMED to some extent, only two of the six member schools (Birmingham & Hull York) require offers to be firmed to get the reduced-grade offer. Brighton & Sussex, Keele, Manchester and Plymouth will honour the reduced offer for firm and insurance choices.

I'm not making excuses for Birmingham and Hull York, especially as Birmingham isn't very up-front about its requirement for offers to be firmed (although Hull York is: www.hyms.ac.uk/medicine/applying/ukwpmed), but I wouldn't like to think of prospective applicants' being deterred from applying to the other four.

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne totally agree. It's a fantastic programme.

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne

Just to defend UKWPMED to some extent, only two of the six member schools (Birmingham & Hull York) require offers to be firmed to get the reduced-grade offer. Brighton & Sussex, Keele, Manchester and Plymouth will honour the reduced offer for firm and insurance choices.

I'm not making excuses for Birmingham and Hull York, especially as Birmingham isn't very up-front about its requirement for offers to be firmed (although Hull York is: www.hyms.ac.uk/medicine/applying/ukwpmed), but I wouldn't like to think of prospective applicants' being deterred from applying to the other four.

That is interesting @NoNotHimTheOtherOne - as I thought BabbleBee's DD was discussing firming Hull York and insuring Keele. Or have I missunderstood?

@Babblebee - according to the above, Keele should be fine for the reduced offer as insurance, unless NotHimTheOtherOne has got this wrong.

Can I please ask a question to all you wise people. DD applying for dentistry. She had one interview and we are waiting to hear on that one. By all accounts, it seems likely that she may be placed on a waiting list. She has an offer for a non dentistry subject, Biology at a uni she would like (say, Sheffield - not but I don't want too many identifying details). I think she can stay on the waiting list for dentistry but she may not find out till much later in the year if she has succeeded. Meanwhile, is it correct that she can't accept Sheffield as an insurance? If, eventually, she does not get a dentistry place then it would be too late to go for Sheffield in clearing I think. This seems unfair. So is it correct that you have to gamble on a wait list place and can have no insurance place? Help!