New universities are in the government 's sights?

[mids2019]

www.theguardian.com/education/2022/jan/20/ofs-publishes-plans-to-punish-english-universities-for-poor-value-for-money

The government plans to penalise universities whose courses are "poor value for money' . Won't this disproportionately effect newer universities and by extension students from poorer backgrounds? Are we starting to see the end of social mobility being extended through education?

Or.....is this a sensible approach to prevent students wasting time and money?

I read on another forum recently that employers who look at university blind applications look very carefully at A level grades. Is this true?

They might also look at school(s) attended as a 'clue' (or is that info redacted too?)

Well it could be. However as we discussed earlier, selection tests are the norm. They might not know where the applicant went to university but they do know a lot about them before they are offered a job. I remain to be convinced that post 19 universities are making great strides in getting grads from the top universities removed from getting very many top class jobs.

I fully accept there is info about careers for 18 year olds via apprenticeships but in reality this is a drop in the ocean compared to degrees. A swallow in cyber technology does not a summer make - so to speak.

I do not really object to practical degrees in some respects but of course there are umpteen STEM grads who would be able to do cyber security after training. Not just ones who study for 3 years with relatively low A levels.

I think the overall picture for apprenticeships doesn’t look great. It’s disappointing. I certainly think applications should be centralised. When DD applied to get pupillage as a barrister, her applications were centralised. Not every chambers used the service but it was established as a gateway for applications.

The other major issue is finding the right apprenticeship and location. I wonder how many apprentices leave home at 18? No halls of residence. You would presumably have to find a room. Then you might need transport. This can be carriers if no one near you offers the apprenticeship you want.

@RampantIvy

I read on another forum recently that employers who look at university blind applications look very carefully at A level grades. Is this true?

That would seem sensible as , prior to TAGs, A level results would hopefully have been a nationwide standard with the exact same exam papers sat by all candidates and grades awarded according to the same criteria.

Employers have staffing budgets, they want the best candidate for the available money.

It’s by no means clear that A level results are the most reliable of predictors in a job. So part of a selection process but weighting should be applied. A good HR department will know his to construct a job/person spec and apply the criteria to the applicants. Clearly non examined skills, practical and applied aptitudes and personality come into play. How does a person problem solve? Can they think on their feet? Do they write accurately? Can they get ideas across to other people? Lots of things can influence employment prospects as well as degrees and A levels. With 25% of A levels at A/A* this isn’t a great way to differentiate between candidates.

Ive been lurking on the Facebook group 'What I wish I knew about University' there are often parents on there saying things like my dc has received offers for Nottingham Uni and Leeds Beckett to study Law, which one should they accept? The comments discuss things like the nightlife, how nice the city is or the accommodation standards. Many parents admit they know nothing about Universities or the application process.

To be fair @Tree543 I had no idea when DD was first looking.

@RampantIvy

I read on another forum recently that employers who look at university blind applications look very carefully at A level grades. Is this true?

I think your DD is in the same field of study as mine? Mine is currently applying for further study and the admissions people are barely even interested in her under-grad let alone her A levels – they are really only interested in her most recent degree.

Obviously slightly different if you're applying for a job because as @TizerorFizz says they are looking for a good fit with the role and the ability to do the job most of all, but if your DD is thinking of more study, the emphasis is likely to be on her dissertation.

To be fair, the numbers who study beyond masters are relatively small and mostly stem if not intending to teach.

@Tree543
In my view, Leeds Beckett (or similar) should maybe not even offer law unless it comes with a career warning!

I think one of the reasons for apprenticeships stats showing more mature applicants is that many employers are making use of their apprenticeship levy to train existing staff.

I also think there is still an element of snobbishness. I also agree that with the artificially inflated nunbernof high grades during covid this has led to some students/parents believing they are too good for them.

Biomedical sciences @thing47?

Yes it is painful. I used to be on WWIKAU and would regularly post the Chambers Preferred (by employers) Unis for Law in an attempt to indicate why certain choices would be better ones!

I left WIWIKAU because I got rather frustrated by parents who didn't teach their DC how to be adults - sending them back with a load of pre-cooked meals instead of teaching them how to cook, worrying that they wouldn't get any washing done because they haven't shown them how to use a washing machine, not teaching them how to budget.

Isn't teaching our DC how to be successfully independent our responsibility as parents?

I once asked a parent why her son couldn't cook, and she said "because he is a boy"

Mine became independent by trial and error. They both could read instruction books! If they overspent they presumably used the overdraft on their bank accounts. They didn’t have freezers for storing food I cooked! They learnt how to do lots of things. Just like me and DH did. Didn’t do much pre uni teaching!

To be fair I didn't need to teach DD. She loves cooking and is blessed with enough common sense to work out how to use a washing machine and how to budget. Having a gap year benefitted her a lot.

Some really interesting posts here.

I think the idea of apprenticeship (though obviously an ancient term) has yet to embed itself in the public consciousness in some ways. I think employers any be starting to expand these schemes but with caution.

Upthread examples of post 18 financial training schemes were detailed which I found interesting as certainly in my day I don't think such schemes were promoted. Is this a sign of progression?

I wonder if there is some negative perception of undergraduate life by those who don't have a degree and someone upthrea d mentioned graduates summarising their degree as a 'fun three years with friends made for life' . While this is a good thing for the student and I don't know if an image of university as being 'fun' is great of getting the public at large in favour of certain parts of HE.

Looking at the leavers" destinations of students from private schools and grammars the overwhelming majority go on to university and I wonder if this is indicative of the idea of any sort of work based training not necessarily being taken up by all parts of society.

@SeasonFinale
I can certainly see that employers like to have apprenticeships that are older and they are retraining existing employees. The rhetoric is that they are for school leavers post A level and are another route to get a degree. I think some people do like the idea of them. However I remember a discussion on here about whether a DD should accept a law apprenticeship and attend a less prestigious uni or go for a law degree at a RG. Don’t think it was Oxbridge and I cannot remember an outcome but the DD was conflicted. It’s very difficult if you take the apprenticeship and then see your university cohort get jobs you won’t get because you are an apprentice. You might not have the most portable degree either. So food for thought.

I think the above thought processes go through the minds of lots of DC. Is the apprenticeship locking me into one company? Will I be able to move on? I could have gone to (Warwick, Bristol, etc) the uni of my choice but now I’m going to X part time and it’s a much lower tariff. Is that a good move? Would I be better hedging my bets at uni? So it becomes quite a difficult decision for some.

I do think they a perceived as saving tuition fees and maintenance and that appeals to the risk averse and those that want immediate earnings. I have no idea what A levels apprentices have but I bet PWC doesn’t want CCC. My DD very good friend works for EY and their grads are top notch. So why would they take CCC type young people for a degree apprenticeship? Maybe they do. If they do, are their career prospects the same? I genuinely don’t know.

I do think I would like to see more of them though. Under 3000 is only 30 per ftse 100 company. That’s very very few. No wonder they can be considered competitive.

There are fewer degree level apprenticeships (Level 5-7) offered to 18 year olds than places for UK 18 year olds at Oxbridge. As someone said recently on a similar thread, 'degree apprenticeships are for the elite; university is for everyone else'; a provocative overstatement, but you get the point. Although UCAS thresholds for degree apprenticeships are often advertised as modest (eg BBC), the reality is that successful applicants will have typically have excellent GCSE and A level grades and, crucially, the maturity, drive and stamina to pass the series of online tests, assessment centres and interviews are that typically no different from those presented to 21 year olds in their penultimate year at university. Such degree apprenticeships may be attached to less well known universities (from a Mumsnet perspective) but the courses are tailored to the demanding expectation of the (often) blue chip employer and, in any event, the real value is in the immediate application of theory learnt in the classroom to the real world. It could be argued, to bring my point back to this thread's central theme, that public money spend on subsidising some universities and some courses might be more effectively spent on encouraging more organisations to develop L4-7 apprenticeships specifically for the under 20s (perhaps even with extra regional incentives to boost their availability outside London and the South East and so be a genuinely useful aspect of 'levelling up').

My DS did a PWC insight thing in 6th form for consultancy and they called and offered him a job post 18 or asked whether he wanted to apply for flying start. (At that point predicted A x 3 and has that now). He said no he wanted to go to uni and they said they thought as much. They have asked he apply for internship at the relevant point though so I do agree that some apprenticeships will be looking for different grades. I know also the Dyson apprenticeship is very competitive and it is A candidates that succeed.

@PerpetualOptimist
I do think this sector needs expanding. I certainly take the point about the degree apprenticeships going to highly organised, more mature and also well qualified young people. I think there is a lot of mis-information given out about them as you say.

I also do wonder who gets to hear about apprenticeships. I do wonder if some schools are even likely to help. Some DC will find this challenging so probably don’t bother. Fun at uni might seem the better option rather than lots of work applying for apprenticeships and then getting nowhere.

@RampantIvy

Biomedical sciences *@thing47*?

Yes, that was her first degree. I won't derail the thread but if you ever want to know what she's done/is doing since, please feel free to PM me.

Re. degree apprenticeships, if they are asking for very high grades, aren't they rather duplicating what universities are offering anyway? So then it's really a question of whether students want the 'university experience' or would prefer to start earning money sooner, or am I missing something?

I was under the impression that what @TizerorFizz was talking about was the opportunity to attract those whose grades wouldn't get them into 'top' universities but who nevertheless might be good candidates for combining work with study or maybe just work but come back to studying at a later date (apologies if I've got that wrong @TizerorFizz), in which case we need far more, and far more wide-ranging, apprenticeships, I'd have thought.

@thing47
Yes. Not just degree apprenticeships. My original thought was that we need to get back to the old colleges of HE (now universities) offering part time HNC and full time HND courses to young people with lower grade A levels or who are working up through qualifications whilst working. So in new terminology: apprenticeships. We were looking at value for money for the state and employability of young people.

I would be worried about there being enough jobs to go round though. Grad jobs are squeezed. If apprentices take them in much bigger numbers, one assumes grad employment will suffer even more. So the state pays for students at uni who are even less likely to get a job. We just need a buoyant economy again!

I don't know is anyone here is a Pointless fan, but one of the women on today's show is doing a degree apprenticeship at Warwick. I didn't quite catch what the job was but I think she said in the automotive business. She didn't get to talk about it very much, unfortunately.

A very good friend of mine worked for Austin Rover back in the day at Oxford. They sent employees to Warwick. He had done City and Guilds and left school at 16 but as a mature employee he did much higher skills and design of body panels at Warwick. I suspect she’s Jaguar Landrover.

The reason that some high achievers go for apprenticeship is the advantage of sponsorship for fees and a "salary" whilst studying. The employer likes the idea of getting the "cleverer" student. The cycle then starts again when higher achievers apply because the grade requirements raise.