New universities are in the government 's sights?

[mids2019]

www.theguardian.com/education/2022/jan/20/ofs-publishes-plans-to-punish-english-universities-for-poor-value-for-money

The government plans to penalise universities whose courses are "poor value for money' . Won't this disproportionately effect newer universities and by extension students from poorer backgrounds? Are we starting to see the end of social mobility being extended through education?

Or.....is this a sensible approach to prevent students wasting time and money?

mids is right about the dream careers. I could have been a classical singer. I am pretty good indeed was better than some of the singers doing music at university and sing every day etc etc... However I wanted to earn a decent living, buy a house, educate my children so I kept it as a hobby. My children's father read music at university has the FRCO (he is an organist), but did the PGCE and teaches and he sees so many children who are the best at music in their school with very high hopes who end up teaching at fairly low pay rates and a bit disillusioned (he wished his father had pushed him into accountancy at 18 but his father who founded a business was fed up with the workers constantly being out on strike and all the problems of the 1970s so was glad his sons chose other paths).

Anyone who thinks parents don't play a role in their children's success probably haven't thought things through. Even if you don't actively do anything, your careers and the examples you set will have some influence. Your lifestyle and what it takes to achieve that. The school you are able to send them to.....

At Uni their peer groups will influence them a lot. So even though you can have a self starter who can make themselves aware of opportunities and options and seek out careers advice etc - I wouldn't underestimate the above influences.

And @Xenia whilst you cannot get your children a paid internship for which there are official channels to get through you can call in a favour and ask for work experience which will stand them in good stead for when it comes to applying for internships?

My observation of the process for applying for the prestigious finance and banking internships is that the organisations are acutely aware of their responsibilities for widening participation and the process cannot be influenced by parents with sharp elbows, contacts and cash. Applying for them does take a great deal of time and commitment but I think the process is fair and open to all.

Yes, you are both right @mids2019 and @TizerorFizz, Oxbridge sports is not the pinnacle. Neither university has finished in the top 5 for overall university sports rankings for some years.

In rugby union, for example, much is made of the Varsity match as an occasion but neither Oxford nor Cambridge play in the Super League which is for the top 10 universities in Britain. This is the case in many other sports too. It's partly to do with the ending of rugby union as an amateur sport – in the past it was largely played by privately educated boys who kept playing while studying at Oxford. Now it's a viable career option for talented players, it's opened up a lot, and several current England players come from poor or disadvantaged backgrounds.

It's interesting to note that in some ways university sport reflects the academic situation – some lesser regarded new universities have carved out a niche for themselves in a particular sport. Northumbria in rugby and Leeds Beckett in tennis, for example.

Anyway, as @TizerorFizz says, it's a bit of a non-issue really as one can always find sports provision outside university.

and open to all.

Actually, some are restricted to specific groups to increase diversity.

@TizerorFizz

I agree that sport is really a non issue in the UK (but not necessarily the US?)

Sporting prowess isn't a determinant for university access as far as I am aware anywhere but in decades gone by I am sure it was in some form (allowing the possibly academically elite sports people into Oxbridge for example). Possibly some any argue sports allow the development of team and leadership skills which may be of interest to employers (?) and we should view education holistically. I think varsity rivalry seems a bit anachronistic really in 2022. As Oxbridge accepts more state pupils the sporting culture may also change (to e.g. football?)

@chopc

Absolutely parental involvement matters and I think gets to the rub of many of the social mobility issues around education in general.

To some extent a lot of universities do make minor provisions in acceptance criteria for pupils from socially deprived backgrounds. The point of note here is that lack of wealth (based on FSM, postcode etc) is a proxy formal of educational opportunity. Why the lack of educational opportunity? Is it that the teaching provision is inadequate - the teachers would vociferously argue not? Is it that children from poorer backgrounds are innately less able to achieve high grades - no in general (and I guess the WP programs at universities are showing this)? So that leaves us with parental and peer influence and to what extent our educational system can account for this is an interesting political debate.

Undoubtedly poor parenting will lead to a massive impact on educational performance in general but there could be an argument that we challenge the causes of poor parenting as well making provision to education. Obviously this is a sensitive topic and being on the whole left wing I would say we generally need to improve socio-economic conditions for society as a whole.

230 or so out of 3600 students at Cambridge this year are from backgrounds where they revived free school meals (presumably low income) and if we compare that proportion with the proportion that is a massive increase. I think this shows good universities are getting better at attracting the brightest kids from the poorest backgrounds.

The problem with underacheivers where the underacheivment is partially or wholly due to parental/peer pressure is really difficult to address morally. Do we give equal educational/career opportunities to those with weaker grades to somehow account for their lack of peer/parental support? Does this have ramifications when we wish to display aspirational role models?

I don't think there is an easy or entirely fair answer to this.

It’s very naive to think all students are working on a level playing field when it comes to gaining internships and work experience. A 2021 study compared the experiences of upper middle class and less privileged students at both Russell Group and post 1992 institutions. They found the upper middle class students were much more able to ‘stack’ multiple prestigious internships and work experience - this was found equally in the Russell Group and post-1992 students. They had cultural familiarity with internships, their families knew they were important and encouraged them to apply. They could afford to temporarily move away from home/university (especially to London) and travel overseas for prestigious opportunities. It was also the norm to leverage family connections for informal work experience/internships. As these were reliant on personal connections and were not advertised they were not accessible to the less privileged. These informal opportunities often led to further work experience through connections the students made in the workplace, or enriched applications for formally advertised competitive schemes.

The full paper is v interesting but paywalled (I can access via university) www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01425692.2021.1886051

The Sutton Trust has also published research on the role internships play in limiting social mobility www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Pay-As-You-Go-1.pdf

"And @Xenia whilst you cannot get your children a paid internship for which there are official channels to get through you can call in a favour and ask for work experience which will stand them in good stead for when it comes to applying for internships?"

I have never as far as I remember, and would not want to, but I agree lots of people do that. Eg my law student son applied for a paralegal fully paid job for 3 months last summer which was nothing to do with me and there were about 100 applicants and he had no legal work experience other than something voluntary he had done at university which was nothing to do with me.

Perhaps I just don't have a pushy enough personality to do that and it just feels a bit naff to do so. It certainly helps before students apply in year 2 of their degree for law firm official vacation schemes if they can have done a week or a few days informally shadowing someone but I doubt it is material to getting a law job or not.

By the way I have also turned down every single request from everyone I know including clients to have their children work here with me too as I would rather not.

However I am not saying parents have no impact. My sibling is a doctor in exactly the same specialism as our father was - NHS consultant. That was not because of connections in any way at all but because of that was what the family was talking about at home and interested in. Similarly 4 of my children lawyers or almost so is presumably more likely than if I were a professional opera singer or sportswoman. The baker's son becomes the baker etc as we see from the 1800s to 1920s in our family in terms of coal miners for a start (even one aged 10 was down the coal mines in the 1800s presumably because his father was).

@LibraryPig
There is absolutely no reason why very intelligent students cannot work out that their peers are applying for internships and also work out what they need to do to get one. We know no one who ever had an internship in our family. Only DH earns well. Countless people like us have DC who learn what they need to do at university. If they cannot work it out, they simply are not motivated. I know plenty like this too.

My DD1 applied for lots of mini pupillage and got all of them. Didn’t do law at university but looked at deadlines, what was required and got on with the applications. Did the same to get pupillage and scholarships. We knew nothing about any of this. We had absolutely no idea how being a barrister could be achieved. We just told her to go for it. Have plan B if that doesn’t work! Her motivation, getting her own career on track and phenomenal organisational skills were nothing to do with us.

I absolutely refuse to believe that DC from more disadvantaged backgrounds cannot do this too. Or whatever their careers need. They just have to want it. Or they could teach or do other work. It was because my DD saw underachievement elsewhere in the family that drove her plus the fact her school didn’t support her all when she needed it. Personal attributes will (and should) outweigh parental advantage. I know quite a few young people who have been inspired by family members not achieving much.

University should level people up. If students don’t bother, don’t work and are quite happy to take low paid jobs, that’s entirely up to them. As @thing47 said, I cannot dictate what people choose to do. But likewise young people who say they want a higher paying job have to work out how to get it. Many of DDs barrister friends did exactly this. They used all their skills to get where they wanted to be and their parents were not involved.

My personal experience of work experience, is that a child almost has to be disadvantaged to get any formal work experience. I know at my job in the city and my husband’s, it was all ring-fenced for the disadvantaged and you could not even bring in your own child. Friends were in the same position.

DD could find nothing open to her, and wrote 12 tailored letters, 11 ignored, one polite decline before covid hit and put her out of her misery. The children finding something had good, informal connections to small firms without policies that could do a favour.

@TizerorFizz If you choose to believe that the only reason disadvantaged students are not accessing the types of prestigious internships/work experience that lead to further career opportunities is that they can’t be bothered or don’t work hard enough, rather than acknowledging that there are structural barriers that mean they are not competing on a level playing field, then that says a lot about you. A working class student from the North East is less financially able to move to London for the summer to intern at an investment bank, they can’t ask a family friend if they can do informal shadowing in their company’s marketing department over Easter. Your personal experience doesn’t outweigh the body of academic research investigating this.

But thousands of DC are in this position and they do make it work. They sleep on sofas. They work and save up so they can afford train fares. Neither do they all expect to go to London! Other places do exist. We seem to think none of these DC can do anything because they are incapable of making it happen. They get to have friends in London and they find a way. It’s what going to an elite university gives you. Now if you ask how many people from the NE want to go to London - that’s another question. Or whether they do just leave it up to others to grasp the opportunities, I don’t know. I do know poorer DC at elite universities tend to go into less prestigious jobs. But they do have kinds of their own and maybe family politics plays a part? London is seen as somewhere you really don’t want to go to by many. I have remained in the NE, NW and Yorkshire. They would not look at universities further south than Nottingham. They effectively limit themselves. One chose a uni where they support a football club. They might say they cannot afford to be in London for a month if you ask but they wouldn’t miss the football for anything and have enough money to be season ticket holders despite being on a bursary at the university. Some immediate wants outweigh any career possibilities.

Oh yes! I forgot. They could commute from where we live to London. No intention of doing that ever.

I don't entirely.subscribe to the view that everything is achievable through hard work, ambition and sacrifice even though these attributes are important. Even with these qualities if the opportunities are out of grasp for societal reasons they are still out of reach.

Work experience and internships are part of this equation and I would think young people should be proactive in gaining these things. However there is a big caveat in that employers need to make these opportunities equally available and this is debatable especially within competitive areas such as journalism or law.

We separate society so much in terms of geography it is difficult for working class.kids to encounter higher paid professionals and use them as role models limiting aspiration. Lower league universities can take advantage of this by looking to actively recruit students who have scraped passed their GCSEs and get mediocre A levels by making promises of routes into professions the students have in reality little perspective of realistic entry requirements. Some of the newer universities may offer a chance for graduate employment in some areas but there needs to be people to assist youngsters deciphering marketing material - career advice is crucial.

Bloody hell tiger that is so ignorant I just don't know where to start. This is the attitude we are up against - disadvantaged kids simply don't try hard enough. I don't know whether to be angry or sad that this misconception clearly prevails (esp amongst the privileged aspirational who could actually help).

Next you'll be telling me that black young people with identical qualifications haven't got a job because they didn't sofa surf enough, nothing to do with bias amongst interview panels at all.

If you really think the best opportunities will always go to those who are better off then we might as well give up on social mobility and go back to square 1.

It really is not difficult for DC who might be working class to observe who and what is around them. My DHs company would have anyone in for up to a week if they bother to ask. He has offices in deprived areas. They are also happy to employ young people from the local ex polytechnics but they must pass the tests and interviews.

DC and schools and local universities need to do a bit of legwork. Careers advice and knowing local companies is vital. I agree selling careers that probably won’t be accessible to most grads isn’t on but with STEM that isn’t the case. There are decent jobs for decent grads and they don’t have to be extra special. They just need to start applying and contacting companies.

Alternatively we could admit there is a deep rooted problem and try to do something about it rather than blame the universities.

And as for It really is not difficult for DC who might be working class to observe who and what is around them that's part of the problem. Who and what is around them are similarly disadvantaged peers. Or do you really believe the children of Asda shelf stackers are mixing with the polo-pony crowd? You only have to look at some of the appalling reports from Durham freshers on SM with their 'Fuck a poor person' competition to realise advantage and disadvantage are really deeply engrained by the time kids are at uni.

But no, you cling onto the idea that they just don't try hard enough.

However we do know of people who have climbed to to the top from humble beginnings through sheer grit and determination. So it is not impossible and people mustn't think it is.

@titchy
We have been talking about DC from disadvantaged backgrounds getting to better universities. I’m not happy with what you say about me. It’s rude really.

Once universities have made huge efforts to get disadvantaged DC to apply they absolutely can observe what’s around them! What are others doing? What are they aspiring to? My DHs business interests are in 2 deprived areas. The young people there only have to look locally to see what they can aspire to. They don’t even have to travel! If they do nothing then I am very sorry but their fate is up to them. I’m afraid life is a competition and you have to work out how to be successful - if that’s what you want. I don’t subscribe to Birmingham everyone else. I think schools, universities and careers advice can improve. But DC need to access what they can and the best do. Otherwise, as I said, there would never be social movement.

I’m wrong for saying DC should try and wrong for saying lots don’t want to and why should I judge them for that! I’ve got the message. I’m wrong. This was such a pleasant and interesting thread. It’s taken a big swerve. No one who contributed to the many pages of this thread wants DC not to thrive. We have discussed openly and pleasantly how this might be achieved. We now have nastiness creeping in. As usual. So - we don’t all agree. But we are allowed to put views forward some might disagree with. What is the point of an echo chamber?

Birmingham? Blaming everyone else…..

@chopc

However we do know of people who have climbed to to the top from humble beginnings through sheer grit and determination. So it is not impossible and people mustn't think it is.

Absolutely. And imagine how much more grit and determination those people must have had compared to their middle class peers. They should be celebrated from the rooftops. Some of the achievements our students have had and the adversity they have overcome is nothing short of phenomenal.

But let's not pretend it's easy if only they tried a bit harder.

This thread is not what I thought it was. The link title 'poor value for money' refers to agriculture and not getting a decent job.

All sounds like a load of tosh.

What a shame they haven't run a proper campaign of penalising universities for poor value for money i.e. to taking £9K from students and giving them barely any teaching, some no face-to-face, and some barely any teaching online at all. for some of the students have experienced university in Covid times, the experience has been utterly abysmal. shame they're not clamping down on that.

@titchy

I think the class clashes at university are going to get its pronounced as grade inflation has allowed a lot more youngsters from relatively deprived backgrounds to get into the more middle class upper tier universities.

I think with university admission students as well as getting a good quality education want a good social experience i.e. fit in with the community. I think this is a normal human condition.

I think expecting Etonians from wealthy families to start forming life long friendships from those from poorer backgrounds is a little disingenuous in reality. I think the brighter poorer students are wary of leaving home communities to embed themselves in a university culture that may or may not be accomodating.

Circles form at university often with people from the same background, Prince William when at uni gravitated towards an upper middle class girl from Marlborough college strangely and even if he had been next door to lovely bright lass from Sunderland with working class accents and a champion North Eastern accent I doubt sparks would fly.

I think this social pattern permeates through HE and a lot of poorer kids will accept low tariff vocational universities as their university of choice.

Are there clashes at university @mids2019? I take your point that people may stick with the 'tribe' they know, but I'd like to think university broadens horizons and encourages people to mix, I'd find it a bit sad if that wasn't happening at all.

Just to bring us back to the original topic a little, do we think some universities over-promise and under-deliver? I personally feel that encouraging all universities to offer all subjects is a mistake and some would be better off specialising in, and thus building a reputation for, fewer areas of expertise. The problem is that you'd have to ensure pupils/schools/sixth form colleges etc all had that information in the first place so they can offer the relevant advice, and I'm not convinced they do.

I think it depends on the university @thing47. DD (at Newcastle) is friends with a mix of people from well off privately educated to students who got into university with contextual offers. I know that there is a significant minority at Durham who are, unfortunately, tarring all "rahs" with the same brush, but not all of them are like this.