New universities are in the government 's sights?

[mids2019]

www.theguardian.com/education/2022/jan/20/ofs-publishes-plans-to-punish-english-universities-for-poor-value-for-money

The government plans to penalise universities whose courses are "poor value for money' . Won't this disproportionately effect newer universities and by extension students from poorer backgrounds? Are we starting to see the end of social mobility being extended through education?

Or.....is this a sensible approach to prevent students wasting time and money?

I think this social pattern permeates through HE and a lot of poorer kids will accept low tariff vocational universities as their university of choice.

You're right, it does. And lol at the idea of Prince William marrying Elli from Sunderland! In one sense it's human nature to seek out those most similar to you, esp in a new environment. It's why immigrants tend to settle in the same area.

The lower tariff places are often less intimidating to those from WC backgrounds - that's why they're chosen in a lot of cases - better likelihood of fitting in (it's why black students often don't apply to Ox or Cam - cities provide a better ethnic mix).

The RG could do a lot better tbh to be less elitist.

That said with large numbers now going to uni, I'd hope the next generation of WC kids, who will often have parents who went to uni themselves, may have more support from their parents who will at least be familiar with it. Maybe we'll eventually achieve social mobility that way!

Pretty sure Oxford is a city @titchy, though I take your general point . I think RG universities enjoy being considered the 'elite' when actually there are lots of other universities doing a very good job in particular areas. So sure if you're studying law or history or English, you are probably better off doing so at an older established university (though even then, there are caveats). But if you're studying business or town & country planning or social work then the picture is quite different.

And you're right, in the next generation there will be a lot more parents who have knowledge of the university system and will be better equipped to help their DCs navigate it. Let's hope so anyway.

@mids2019 how is Kate Middleton upper middle class. Her parents were air stewards then entrepreneurs who were able to send their kids to private schools which started them off well on life. Did they buy themselves class as well?

[quote chopc]@mids2019 how is Kate Middleton upper middle class. Her parents were air stewards then entrepreneurs who were able to send their kids to private schools which started them off well on life. Did they buy themselves class as well? [/quote]
Michael Middleton was from quite a wealthy background.

@Tree543 I stand corrected

@chopc

Interesting question. No doubt Kate comes from a wealthy background and it would be hard to describe her as working class. Technically she is a commoner but a lot of her upbringing could be viewed as quite a privileged one.

The point is William could have easily struck up a romantic relationship with a bright articulate girl at St Andrews from a relatively poor background from a state school but this didn't seem to happen.

I guess looking at the way the Duchess of Sussex has been treated by the British press may make you think that background does matter in these decisions?

I believe it is the first time that the wife of the monarch will be a commoner but how 'common' in reality is she?

@thing47

I think that is what's missing here. Graduate parents are in a much better position potentially to advise their offspring about university entrance and I think they have a broader perspective of potential careers. I think experience allows parents to maybe advice against courses that are well marketed but sadly do not lead to optimal employment.

www.theguardian.com/education/2022/jan/29/government-university-places-poorest-chris-millward

But if a lengthy article and only one perspective but basically defending lower tier universities in social inclusivity grounds.

mids, it was Prince Charlesalso broke the mould because he did not marry a princess from another royal household as the Queen had done. Lady Diana Spencer was not royalty so that was a big break from the past. However I agree that Middleton did not even have a title.

Interesting article @mids2019. I think that it is short sighted to lay all the blame with the universities.

There is definitely a need to cut back on degrees that do not lead to graduate roles as it only creates unnecessary debt both for tax payers and graduates. However before just slapping a student loan criteria, which will negatively impact working class children. Some thought should be put into the process. Maybe once year 11 finishes their GCSEs instead of leaving school, they return after a couple weeks break for career planning. With the aim to create a plan for their post 16 education.

A special website could be built, which could contain relevant information covering uni, further education, apprenticeships and internships. Skype style meetings could be held with real people to hear about careers. It would at least level the playing field and possibly dispell myths about careers. Teachers could be around for behaviour management but it could be run by dedicated careers advisors. This could be a real way to level the playing field.

What do others think?

@OnlyTheBravest

Good points.

I think careers advice as an occupation has been sorely underfunded and the life changing consequences for pupils of these roles need to be considered.

I would argue you still need the human as well as the internet to give an individualized approach to maximising pupil potential. The problem I think with the internet is that you cHildren very easily 'market' possibly inappropriate degrees to pupils at a susceptible age and especially with working class families there may be little to prevent students making a wrong turn. We need to move to a situation where a career advisor is free to suggest that a student makes use of their A levels to maximise their opportunities instead of having an attitude of "all universities are the same ' and the pupil going to an institution with a lower A level tariff than the student results.

With grade inflation inevitably to continue and currently 25% of A levels being awarded at A level and A star grades more kids from working class communities will be achieving higher grades. In effect grade inflation has a similar effect to contextual grading. As more children gain the grades to go to more established universities we need careers advisers to ensure the possibility of entry to such universities is made apparent to these youngsters.

There will I think be a drive from more middle class parents for the introduction of new A level grades (A star star?) to allow differentiation of the more highly academic pupils and it will be interesting to see if this happens. Grade inflation to some extent suits the government 'levelling up agenda' as it could be argued it does aid those from more disadvantaged communities.

An aside but one of the schools in a deprived areas near us sent its first pupil to Oxford to study fine art . In some way no surprise as the school specialises in the arts and design. The vast majority of pupils though dinners into GCSEs and A levels which seemingly promise careers in art, fashion design, theatre etc. Are left disappointed given the huge completion in these careers.

Acting, sculpting, painting, fashion design, drama production could be argued to 'graduate roles ' but the completion is immense and selection of people for the careers is a subjective process with subsequent precarious career. The as ' dream jobs ' are often dominate by the middle classes anyway.

@mids2019

'With grade inflation inevitably to continue and currently 25% of A levels being awarded at A level and A star grades'

2021 A Level results were 44.3% was grade A/A*. 25% was pre covid level.

@Dove0709

I stand corrected.

Given the figures above do you think the government should bite the bullet and accept grade deflation from COVID levels?

How are the generation of students going to feel who received the reduced grades? They will not accept they are inherently less able than the COVID exam generation.

How does Oxbridge decide who to interview? How do RG universities e.g. the LSE decide who to give offers to (especially given that offers are based on oreicted grades which are overestimated in some cases)

I wouldn't want be an A level student now nor a university admissions officer

There's a story in the media today that UCAS are planning to reform the Personal Statement in some way as it's believed that the current status favours already more advantaged students who tend to get help and advice which disadvantaged students do not. No details yet, but an acknowledgment that the PS could be made fairer.

Would be very interested to know what people who work at the coalface of university admissions think could be done to ensure disadvantaged students are helped over PS. Perhaps this could be incorporated into the careers advice that @OnlyTheBravest and @mids2019 are recommending?

@thing47

How will that work?

The idea of universities not putting any weight on the PS was that extra curricular activities were more accessible to the middle class. In addition there is no way in reality to check who actually wrote the PS and if super curricular activities are mentioned there is no way to check (sort from interview) that these were actually done?

It sounds like the PS may be used as a 'tie breaker' given the current A level stats mentioned above but I think we have to be really careful with this I think

This may create a niche industry of PS writing companies who can carefully craft the statement to avoid the student appearing too priveleged.

I think a careers adviser could give advice in a good PS but we have to be careful their skills are used widely in the school system.

If PS are designed to support the disadvantaged how are public schools going to respond?

I can’t see how the PS can be reformed. Creating A** could happen, or 10s.

It’s not just parents of high achieving DC who will want them, but I assume the Universities will need a differentiator.

They could start running IQ/aptitude tests for all applicants. That would not be without its problems either.

Otherwise we are looking at some form of lucky-dip.

No idea! Do away with it altogether? The story seems very, very sketchy on any details tbh. Far be it from me to suggest that it's a headline without any substance…

All of your qualms/points you raise seem entirely valid to me, I only posted about it because it seemed to be relevant to our ongoing discussion on this thread.

@thing47

I agree, just pointing out the myriad of challenges with he at the moment.

Listening to a bit on radio 2 saying that sport should be on the core curriculum as well as maths, English and science. The idea is that being good at sport influences academic results (???).

It seems as we move sport being disregarded as any sort of entry factor in HE the government is now wanting to reinforcing it's importance in 'education' (in the broadest sense).

Surely pushing sport at school will displace time WC children require to focus on core academic skills. Independent schools have the resources to accomodate sport and academia successfully so have an advantage in this regard.

I believe in a healthy society but this is putting an additional burden on the ordinary comp when surely the focus on schools should be in improving educational standards?

Our local comp finishes at 2.50pm every day for some pupils - that is secondary school, you can hardly believe it is so early. They could certainly fit in an hour of sport even just after school going on runs for no cost presumably fairly easily.

Our local comp finishes at 2.50pm every day for some pupils - that is secondary school, you can hardly believe it is so early

Most state secondary schools finish early these days because they start a lot earlier, and they have shorter holidays. DD started at 8.20 and finished at 15.50. Privately educated children have a longer school day and longer holidays. The number of hours spent at school balances out in the end.

What do children do after school? Presumably homework but I have to say at least at primary level it doesn't seem every night. Possibly use this time to extra work?

Homework, see friends, community volunteering (DD was a young leader at Brownies for several years), help out at open days, the occasional shopping trip or birthday party.

By GCSE and A level years there were a lot of after school catch up classes.

I think the ideal is that people from different backgrounds mix is a sound one and for future working life this is definitely a skill.

However there is that point WC children are
view the 'leap' into more high profile university a big one. With more children of all backgrounds getting high grades this does become more a feature of the university social landscape.

This may be inaccurate but it seems that someone attending Durham university would have a different social experience to someone at Liverpool (both in the RG).

It's the idea of universities being academically elitist (if you agree with that) but not being socially elitist thats the challenge.

Absolutely, we need to be encouraging DC from all backgrounds to see that universities are not socially elitist – and also to take steps to ensure that is true!

Going to university and only mixing with people like you seems to me to be something of a missed opportunity, it ought to be about broadening your horizons, it's a big world out there.