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Higher education

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Economics degree without maths A level?

98 replies

Suzi69 · 17/11/2021 21:23

DS is in year 13 and is about to apply to go to university from September. The problem is that he wants to do an Economics degree but he hasn't taken maths A level The school advised him to take A levels he's interested in so he took history, chemistry and economics.

He's a little despondent as he found that the Economics courses he's most interested in at Russell group universities need maths A level. The courses he has found that offer Economics without maths A level are BA's, not BSc's. He suspects that for economics related jobs employers favor students who have A level maths. He's nervous about doing one of the degrees he's applied for as he hasn't studied maths for so long. Basically he wishes he'd done A level maths.

He's considering taking a gap year , taking A level maths in that year as an online accelerated courses and then he has a much wider choice of universities. Does this sound crazy? I don't know a lot about Economics and feel I'm not qualified to advise him.

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Suzi69 · 18/11/2021 17:23

@Phphion

There are different types of economics jobs and different Economics degrees will equip you more or less for these jobs.

There are jobs that are heavily mathematical, for example in some areas of finance, insurance, pensions, plus more niche areas in transport, health, energy, etc., as well as some jobs in academia and consultancy. Big data and data mining, while it has generated more jobs in statistics, has also opened up demand for people who can do 'hard maths' in sectors where there previously wasn't much demand, the obvious example being advertising and communications. These kinds of jobs often involve day-to-day application of high maths and economic modelling in areas such as forecasting, planning, risk management and some policy-making. To do these jobs, you really need to be a very competent all-round mathematician and employers will not be looking for any person with an economics degree. The kinds of courses that prepare people for these jobs are the ones that usually require A Level maths and prefer further maths as well.

Then there are jobs that don't really require you to be a high level mathematician, but they do require you to be a very competent statistician. These are jobs where you are still doing maths, but you are dealing more in applied maths and data interpretation. There are a lot of economics jobs that fall in to this category and it's a growth area generally, although there are a lot of not especially well-paid jobs in this area (compared to the average salaries of economics graduates). Some employers in this area would just want someone with an economics degree, but more likely, they would want to assure themselves that the person had some confidence and experience with maths, as evidenced through their having taken maths / stats-related economics modules and/or having A Level maths.

Finally, there are economics jobs that don't really involve a lot of doing maths. These jobs would include some areas of management and business functions more generally, some parts of investment banking, technical writing, some policy-related areas and other jobs where you are working predominantly at a strategic, rather than a technical, level and your job primarily requires you to interpret data, to understand it and to be able to communicate and apply that understanding. For these jobs, employers would just want an economics degree (or often just any degree) and economics degrees with a strong applied focus or those that allow you to focus on things like economic policy, history, social statistics and so on would be a good choice.

For universities, the top tier of universities for economics - Cambridge, LSE, UCL and Warwick - all have highly mathematical courses. This reflects something of a schism in the academic economics world. You will find some top economists who are very strongly opposed to the BA Economics degrees even being allowed to call themselves an economics course because the maths content is so low and what they do is not 'real economics'. The highest ranked courses require A Level Maths and people with only A Level Maths rather than Further Maths have extra classes to bring them up to the standard of maths required. These courses prepare people well for the highly mathematical jobs and would not be a good choice for someone who doesn't particularly likely maths or have a good grounding in it.

There are, however, universities that are highly ranked universities generally, rather than specifically being powerhouses in economics, that have a lower maths content to their economics degrees. Durham economics is a good example of a course that is notoriously low on maths content but very strong on theory and application of economics and its graduates are very sought after for the interpreting and communicating-type jobs. Leeds has an excellent reputation in applied economics. Some of the Business School-based economics departments also have specialist courses in Business Economics, Industrial Economics or economics courses with a very strong business focus which tend to have less mathematical content, e.g. Nottingham, Lancaster, Cardiff.

The ones I would really avoid are the pseudo-mathematical courses that appear to offer a lot of maths but when you properly look at it, it is really low level stuff. These are the worst of all worlds, because you waste your time doing basic maths that will not be of interest to employers who want proper mathematical skills, and you could better spend this time doing the kinds of things that will be attractive to employers who want people who are able to put economics in a broader context.

Phphion I'll use your post as a discussion point with DS thanks for taking the time to post.
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Needmoresleep · 18/11/2021 17:44

I had not seen Phphion's post when I posted, but she is covers thd ground brilliantly. Discuss with your son. Perhaps he could then show to the teachers who gave him relatively poor advice.

LillianGish · 19/11/2021 23:38

My DC’s economics A-level teacher (who had also previously taught at LSE) said that many students enjoy Economics A-level (they enjoy the theory) but get a total shock at degree level when it essentially becomes like a different subject (ie. very mathematical and statistical very quickly)! This was my DD. If only she had had such an economics teacher. She loved it at school, but lasted six weeks at uni. She is now on an entirely different course (at a different uni).

Chewbecca · 20/11/2021 17:19

DS is applying to do Economics next September with no Maths a level either.

He’s found a lot of courses that don’t require it, Scottish unis in particular are suitable as I am told the Scots Higher system is broader but less deep so there is a lower presumed starting knowledge position.
DS is also very keen on the modular courses and will likely select the less Mathsy modules.

A 2nd barrier to the top Unis is AAB I think so worth trying to push that up to AAA or higher.

KittenKong · 20/11/2021 17:23

I studied economics in my first degree and was hopeless at maths. I loved economics though as did quite well in it.

SuiGeneris · 20/11/2021 17:46

What Phphion above said.

I read economics and work in one of the sectors your DS is interested in. Maths A level is the bare minimum and actually a good grounding in statistics is extremely helpful. I would recommend talking to the admission tutors of the courses he is keen on and see whether they would accept him if he took maths in one year and/or whether they would recommend he does further maths alongside.

Very difficult to work in economics without an excellent mathematical grounding these days. Working in areas related to economics without such a grounding is of course possible, but maths A level is really necessary to be able to function.

CrimbleCrumble1 · 26/11/2021 16:57

The gap year/maths A level is a good idea.
My DS did an Economics degree and economics, maths and physics A levels.

EmmaStone · 26/11/2021 21:36

I started Economics at Warwick without A Level Maths back in the Dark Ages 😁, but found the Maths catch up pretty tough, and actually I didn't find the mathematical side terribly interesting - I guess I preferred the application. After my first year I switched to Economics and Economic History (I see it's no longer offered at Warwick), and changed from a BSc to a BA. I still had lectures with my Economics peers (and I lived in a house filled with Economists!). Post Uni, many on the pure Econ course attempted to get banking jobs, but very few did (at least during the milkround interviews. They may have got there eventually). But my housemate and I both ended up at Big 4 Accountancy firms, and a year later, another of our old house mates (having done an Economics Masters) also joined a Big 4 firm. Of all my peers, I can only recall one or two that actually became economists, and they were truly exceptional (1 stayed on and completed his Phd).

So. If investment banking is his goal, he might find it even more difficult than he realises (but there are also lots of qualified accountants who then go into banking BTW...). I've never been at any disadvantage from swapping to a BA, I really enjoyed my degree having done so (after a really tough first year where I had a lot of doubts), and ended up in a similar position to my peers. I think just having Economics and Warwick on my CV was enough TBH.

Megan1992xx · 28/11/2021 17:27

@SuiGeneris

What Phphion above said.

I read economics and work in one of the sectors your DS is interested in. Maths A level is the bare minimum and actually a good grounding in statistics is extremely helpful. I would recommend talking to the admission tutors of the courses he is keen on and see whether they would accept him if he took maths in one year and/or whether they would recommend he does further maths alongside.

Very difficult to work in economics without an excellent mathematical grounding these days. Working in areas related to economics without such a grounding is of course possible, but maths A level is really necessary to be able to function.

I really want to make the point that if you are studying Economics at University to do an Economics based job Maths and probably Further Maths is essential. The people you work with will have degrees in STEM subjects not necessarily Economics and when they talk to you it is in a mathematical form. As SuiGeneris pointed out above 'maths A level is really necessary to be able to function'. I know it sounds unfair and in a perfect world your life choices should not reach a cul de sac at GCSE but that is just how it is. Appalling advice from teachers to do the A levels he 'enjoyed'. I worry about the advice that our young people get when it can have such a devastating effect.
abc345 · 28/11/2021 17:44

For what it's worth, I went into investment banking (via a big four accountancy firm) with a geography degree. I took A level maths but, for corporate finance/M&A type work, it wasn't a pre-requisite. 95% of the department were either qualified accountants or lawyers but there wasn't a prevalence of economics graduates.

My husband graduated in economics at one of the more prestigious unis and found it challenging without A level maths. School advised my son (during a pre sixth form A levels and career guidance type thing) that he should take A level maths if he was considering an economics degree as not many of the RG unis accepted entrants without it. (Appreciate that RG isn't the be all and end all).

Blubells · 28/11/2021 19:49

Appalling advice from teachers to do the A levels he 'enjoyed'.

I worry about the advice that our young people get when it can have such a devastating effect.

I agree. Schools and parents should help students to look at required subjects for any degree.

I studied economics and agree that without Maths and ideally Further Maths A level you will be at a disadvantage. Economics is very mathematical. It's a great/fun degree though!

ancientgran · 28/11/2021 19:54

OP have a look at Nottingham, I'm pretty sure they used to do a joint first year for BA and BSc and then you could choose which way you went in year 2. He could make an informed choice at the end of the first year.

Suzi69 · 29/11/2021 07:00

@EmmaStone

I started Economics at Warwick without A Level Maths back in the Dark Ages 😁, but found the Maths catch up pretty tough, and actually I didn't find the mathematical side terribly interesting - I guess I preferred the application. After my first year I switched to Economics and Economic History (I see it's no longer offered at Warwick), and changed from a BSc to a BA. I still had lectures with my Economics peers (and I lived in a house filled with Economists!). Post Uni, many on the pure Econ course attempted to get banking jobs, but very few did (at least during the milkround interviews. They may have got there eventually). But my housemate and I both ended up at Big 4 Accountancy firms, and a year later, another of our old house mates (having done an Economics Masters) also joined a Big 4 firm. Of all my peers, I can only recall one or two that actually became economists, and they were truly exceptional (1 stayed on and completed his Phd).

So. If investment banking is his goal, he might find it even more difficult than he realises (but there are also lots of qualified accountants who then go into banking BTW...). I've never been at any disadvantage from swapping to a BA, I really enjoyed my degree having done so (after a really tough first year where I had a lot of doubts), and ended up in a similar position to my peers. I think just having Economics and Warwick on my CV was enough TBH.

Thanks for your post.Great to see that you've acted according to your interests and everything seems to have worked out well in the end. Interesting that you think the degree title held some sway. A couple of people have now talked about going into accountancy and then branching out into a different field so that is also useful information for DS
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Suzi69 · 29/11/2021 07:03

@Blubells

Appalling advice from teachers to do the A levels he 'enjoyed'.

I worry about the advice that our young people get when it can have such a devastating effect.

I agree. Schools and parents should help students to look at required subjects for any degree.

I studied economics and agree that without Maths and ideally Further Maths A level you will be at a disadvantage. Economics is very mathematical. It's a great/fun degree though!

Completely agree with the criticism of the school. The fact that it's a fee paying school seems to make it worse. Myself and DH did tell DS to do maths but he didn't really listen; normal at that age.

DS is now planning to do a BA in Economics, which doesn't need maths, and to cover some of the maths needed in the summer holidays himself.

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abc345 · 29/11/2021 07:07

A couple of people have now talked about going into accountancy and then branching out into a different field so that is also useful information for DS.

Thinking of my year group post ACA qualification at our big 4 firm, most went into corporate finance type investment banking, but some into industry, private equity and consultancy firms. It's a good foundation (although the exams were harder than I envisaged). Whereas the direct graduate intake into our corporate finance firm worked even longer hours than we did and felt somewhat at a disadvantage not having either a legal or accountancy background.

My friend is a partner at a big 4 firm and I believe they have a reasonably challenging aptitude type test before qualifying for an interview now. To make the first stage somewhat "blind/unbiased" in terms of graduates/non-graduates and other factors, including type of degree and university.

Suzi69 · 29/11/2021 08:08

@abc345

A couple of people have now talked about going into accountancy and then branching out into a different field so that is also useful information for DS.

Thinking of my year group post ACA qualification at our big 4 firm, most went into corporate finance type investment banking, but some into industry, private equity and consultancy firms. It's a good foundation (although the exams were harder than I envisaged). Whereas the direct graduate intake into our corporate finance firm worked even longer hours than we did and felt somewhat at a disadvantage not having either a legal or accountancy background.

My friend is a partner at a big 4 firm and I believe they have a reasonably challenging aptitude type test before qualifying for an interview now. To make the first stage somewhat "blind/unbiased" in terms of graduates/non-graduates and other factors, including type of degree and university.

Thanks so much for all the information; I'll discuss with DS.
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libbytrois · 29/11/2021 08:49

Some excellent advice here. I worked as an economist with a leading bank. Colleagues had top academic qualifications - minimum was MSc . I wouldn't let any of my children do an economics degree without solid maths foundation. Even some BAs have rigorous maths content.

Veronica25 · 30/11/2021 21:52

Sorry to jump into this thread. So for Economics do you need to do both Maths and Further Maths? or can you get away with one one of those only?

Also, what other subjects are important if the child is choosing A levels but still doesn't know what career to choose.? My daughter enjoys Maths, Chemistry, Geography, and DT. She really has no clue what she wants to study yet. I know she doesn't enjoys physics or classical civilisations but she is happy with all her other GCSE she is studying.

Will DT be good for anything? That's her favourite subject. We believe Geography won't be good unless she is going to be a teacher.

I really thought kids will get more advice at school about the choices, but doesn't seem to be the case.

Blubells · 30/11/2021 22:03

For some Universities you need Maths and Further Maths to study Economics. I can think of Cambridge, LSE but there may be others. And even if Further Maths is not required, it certainly helps when studying Economics.

CrimbleCrumble1 · 01/12/2021 10:21

Veronica25 my DS studied Maths, Physics and Economics A levels and graduated this summer with a first class degree in Economics.
He didn’t enjoy Physics and wished he’d picked German instead, he was an all rounder (apart from English) so it was hard to pick his A levels.
He just started work at an Asset Management company.

Ellmau · 18/12/2021 18:59

This FOI requests shows over 90% of successful applicants to Cambridge economics had FM A level:
www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/804929/response/1929047/attach/3/FOI%202021%20870%20Kozlowski%20data.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

Porridgeislife · 18/12/2021 19:15

I’ve just finished interviewing for interns & grads for next year’s investment and research roles.

We don’t look into modules nor subjects particularly. We do expect good grades however. Like most big employers we are targeting a diverse intake so will look into a candidate’s background as well and adjust upwards for perceived disadvantage. We do not require quantitative A-levels or university subjects.

We do however sift candidates via online aptitude tests (logic, psychometric, etc) where a quantitative background does assist and one thing I particularly noticed this year was that A level mathematics marks closely correlated with ability in solving verbal situational interview problems.

I’d encourage your son to aim for somewhere like Manchester but to make sure he takes as many quantitative subjects as allowed to enhance his ability in the area.

Suzi69 · 18/12/2021 19:28

@Porridgeislife

I’ve just finished interviewing for interns & grads for next year’s investment and research roles.

We don’t look into modules nor subjects particularly. We do expect good grades however. Like most big employers we are targeting a diverse intake so will look into a candidate’s background as well and adjust upwards for perceived disadvantage. We do not require quantitative A-levels or university subjects.

We do however sift candidates via online aptitude tests (logic, psychometric, etc) where a quantitative background does assist and one thing I particularly noticed this year was that A level mathematics marks closely correlated with ability in solving verbal situational interview problems.

I’d encourage your son to aim for somewhere like Manchester but to make sure he takes as many quantitative subjects as allowed to enhance his ability in the area.

Thanks for your input, which is interesting and reassuring.

Ds does intend to try to focus on quantitative subjects; I’ll tell him your thoughts in the hope that this will further motivate him.

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