Economics degree without maths A level?

[Suzi69]

DS is in year 13 and is about to apply to go to university from September. The problem is that he wants to do an Economics degree but he hasn't taken maths A level The school advised him to take A levels he's interested in so he took history, chemistry and economics.

He's a little despondent as he found that the Economics courses he's most interested in at Russell group universities need maths A level. The courses he has found that offer Economics without maths A level are BA's, not BSc's. He suspects that for economics related jobs employers favor students who have A level maths. He's nervous about doing one of the degrees he's applied for as he hasn't studied maths for so long. Basically he wishes he'd done A level maths.

He's considering taking a gap year , taking A level maths in that year as an online accelerated courses and then he has a much wider choice of universities. Does this sound crazy? I don't know a lot about Economics and feel I'm not qualified to advise him.

Is he hoping to do a BSc or BA? A BSc does require a decent grasp of pure maths.

Ds1 is in this situation but went into it with his eyes fully open and knowing that there would be limited options for him without a level maths. There are various great universities that do the BA route though and where you just have to do maths units in year 1 to get the grounding.

What I do think could be hard for your ds is picking up maths again with a two year break. Ds1 is doing core maths outside of school to keep his hand in. It’s very practical and supports economics a level very well. Could he do that?

He could start core maths now and sit the exam in June if he out the effort in.

@ClerkMaxwell

Edinburgh reccommend "Renshaw, Maths for Economics". They don't require A Level maths on entry but like other posters DD found the maths hard going even with the equivalent of an A at A level.

He sounds motivated so if he worked thru this or similar in the summer he should feel less daunted.

Thanks for the book recommendation, I'll definitely get this.

The vast majority of Economics degrees need maths A level.

Once you step outside of the fierce competition top 10 or so unis ,that really isn't the case! At grades ABB downwards he should find many of them don't specifically require maths at A Level. That doesn't mean maths A Level isn't helpful and useful, of course.

I think schools probably don't communicate clearly enough (bums on seats and all that) that Economics is a branch of mathematics. My DS was made to do it because his other subject choices clashed wit Business A Level! He is happy he did as he really likes it and is doing very well, but knows a degree won't suit him. He is , however applying for soc sci degrees with quantitative methods which your DS could look into.

Does his school do the Core Maths AS at all?

Also, he really enjoyed reading Freakonomics.

need, Bath definitely requires maths.

I suspected that, but was too lazy to look it up. My point was that old chestnut. There are very good courses at non RG Universities.

You say that DS took the A level subjects he’s interested in.

Does your DS enjoy maths? If not, he should think long and hard about why he wants to do an economics degree/career.

@cloudtree

Ds1 is in this situation but went into it with his eyes fully open and knowing that there would be limited options for him without a level maths. There are various great universities that do the BA route though and where you just have to do maths units in year 1 to get the grounding.

What I do think could be hard for your ds is picking up maths again with a two year break. Ds1 is doing core maths outside of school to keep his hand in. It’s very practical and supports economics a level very well. Could he do that?

Yes DS definitely thinks that his break in maths is a problem. His school doesn't do core maths; I've just looked at it and like the look of it; very practical and equivalent to AS level.

If DS does go to Uni in September I'll suggest to him that he covers as much of the syllabus as possible with a tutor before he goes.

If he took a year off I don't know if it would be better for him to cover this syllabus or A level maths as I don't know how closely either fit with the maths in an Economics degree.

DS1 is doing core maths outside of school with a tutor. He's having an hour's tuition a week and the tutor said that will be plenty to cover the course (he also got an 8 at GCSE). He's really enjoying it even though he wasn't a massive fan of GCSE maths. Loads about interest rates, mortgages, practical application of statistics etc. He's said he's learning how the maths works rather than just accepting that it does and following the rules.

@Cheshirewife

You say that DS took the A level subjects he’s interested in.

Does your DS enjoy maths? If not, he should think long and hard about why he wants to do an economics degree/career.

Excellent point; yes he did enjoy maths but felt that he'd get better grades doing other subjects for A levels. I suppose at that stage his degree choice wasn't clear. He had never studied Economics before A level and having studied it now he's very clear that he wants to continue with it. At his school I hear a lot of students deciding not to take maths as it's "too difficult". Clearly it's not with the right work ethic and the right amount of ability.

@cloudtree

DS1 is doing core maths outside of school with a tutor. He's having an hour's tuition a week and the tutor said that will be plenty to cover the course (he also got an 8 at GCSE). He's really enjoying it even though he wasn't a massive fan of GCSE maths. Loads about interest rates, mortgages, practical application of statistics etc. He's said he's learning how the maths works rather than just accepting that it does and following the rules.

It sounds great. Is your DS intending to do a BA in Economics? And if so do you think core maths would support the maths in the degree?

@Piggywaspushed

Also, he really enjoyed reading Freakonomics.

I'll buy it him for Christmas, thanks

I failed maths A.
I did PPE on the OU, and tbh I think economics goes best with something else, to make you more employable, so geography type things, politics etc. IIRC from back when I was applying to Uni {in the Dark Ages) even the KSE made you do something else alongside economics (more like a "minor" in the US than joint honours)

What is essential is statistics. It is so much better if you understand how to read data right from the start

I used to work in one of the best firms in the economic advisory department (most people were from Oxbridge with Economics). The ONE thing you HAD to have was Maths A Level. Even though the role was Economics, you didn't need the degree. E.g. I had a History degree (and then ACA).

I think he will need to speak to the unis. But from a practical perspective, the maths in Chemistry is probably enough to understand the Economics course itself.

@Piggywaspushed

The vast majority of Economics degrees need maths A level.

Once you step outside of the fierce competition top 10 or so unis ,that really isn't the case! At grades ABB downwards he should find many of them don't specifically require maths at A Level. That doesn't mean maths A Level isn't helpful and useful, of course.

I think schools probably don't communicate clearly enough (bums on seats and all that) that Economics is a branch of mathematics. My DS was made to do it because his other subject choices clashed wit Business A Level! He is happy he did as he really likes it and is doing very well, but knows a degree won't suit him. He is , however applying for soc sci degrees with quantitative methods which your DS could look into.

Does his school do the Core Maths AS at all?

I think he would have liked to have had the chance to apply to some of the more prestigious universities and that's one of the reasons he's considering doing A level maths and applying again next year.

We haven't found so many Russell Group Universities that don't need A level maths and if he doesn't get into his chosen Uni on results day he's wondering if he'll be able to find anything he's happy with in clearing. Sadly his school doesn't do Core Maths

@Brefugee

I failed maths A. I did PPE on the OU, and tbh I think economics goes best with something else, to make you more employable, so geography type things, politics etc. IIRC from back when I was applying to Uni {in the Dark Ages) even the KSE made you do something else alongside economics (more like a "minor" in the US than joint honours)

What is essential is statistics. It is so much better if you understand how to read data right from the start

That's interesting. If he goes down the route of brushing up on maths over the summer via a core maths syllabus I'll tell him to look closely at statistics.

Another vote for Social Science with Quants degrees. DD loved Economics at school but found first year economics at uni hard going and switched degrees. Loving Social Policy. Will still do about one third quants (mainly stats with the maths you need to understand the techniques).

Might be worth looking at these degrees too.

@Needmoresleep

A lot depends on how good he is at maths. Some degrees are very maths heavy and they lead to jobs which are maths heavy. But the expectation, normally, to get onto one of these degrees is A* in maths if not FM. Not everyone will want to be, or is able to be, a quant.

There are lots of career openings for people with other skills who have graduated from a good University and who have a sound understanding of economics. He only needs one place, and if he has found five he is interested in applying to, that is fine. (And don't limit it to RG. Bath, say, is very good. I don't know if they need maths.) I might also broaden the search to economics and finance or economics and management or economics and politics if that is where his career interests lie.

That said, economics can be fiercely competitive, and many courses oversubscribed. Good Universities are able to demand good grades.

I might try a two tier approach. Apply now, where he can. (Only places he would really like to go to, and three or four within his predicted grades.) Work like blazes to get the best grades possible. In the meantime plan for a Plan B by researching different ways of sitting maths. Some private providers allow for tuition in 2 batches, one intense one at the start of the academic year which enables them to write an informed grade prediction, and then another intense couple of months before the A level itself, with travel in the middle. Or there will be on line options. If he does not get a place either via UCAS or clearing, launch Plan B.

You might also look at courses which have both a BA and a BSc, or perhaps joint degrees, and ask if there is any scope to switch if you choose the right courses in the first year. Big departments might have a bigger range of courses and more flexibility. But honestly I have never heard anyone say anything other than "I have an economics degree" without specifying that it is a BSc. If you have that degree you will be assumed to have the equivalent of maths A level. If an employer really wants someone technical who is adept at financial maths/statistics, they will be looking for first degrees from specific Universities (probably Cambridge, LSE, UCL and Warwick) or a good Masters.

He might also be warned that many find the maths part of economics particularly dry. Though not everyone. DS, who had never thought of himself as good at maths, found himself loving it at University, and eventually graduated in econometrics

Thanks for your thoughts. The two tier approach is exactly what I'm thinking. Try to move forward by getting the best grades possible and gaining entry onto a BA Economics then at least he's in and is on the path to getting the degree. He won't have the opportunities available to those with degrees from Exeter Warwick etc but there will be other paths to go down.

If he doesn't get in then he will have to consider doing some maths next year. I've found a couple of online providers; NEC do a fast track one year maths A level online with live tutorials. It's quite expensive but sounds well organized. Hopefully DS would be able to work a little but traveling would be tricky as the course is September until the A level. I like the sound of a private provider which allows for travel in the middle but can't find anything like that. Do you have any suggestions?

There will be other routes to go down but investment banking probably won’t be one without Maths A level. These jobs are fiercely competitive. Investment Banking is largely maths based. Just try for the best courses he can find at the best universities. There is a noticeable salary premium by going to RG (and a few others) in this subject. However there is a voluntary sector and public sector where it won’t be so competitive as investment banking!

@Suzi69

Thanks everyone for your input. He doesn't know what job he'll want to do; he just says he wants it to be Economics related because he likes the A level. He's mentioned Investment banking but I don't think he knows; I realize that this is not directly Economics related.

Another idea my son had was for him to touch on some of the maths he'll find in an Economics degree over the summer. Or if he does take a gap year to study some maths in that year without it being a full blown A level.

Does anyone have any ideas as to how to go about this and which would be the best areas to focus on?

There are some online websites eg Uplearn which teach A level maths on a weekly basis so he could join for a few weeks but I presumably some of the maths content is more relevant than others for an Economics degree.

He could do a year of a Maths / Statistics degree at the OU. That’s how my colleague’s son got the maths he needed for LSE. But he had incredibly high A Levels and got close to 100% in the maths certificate too.

Investment banking is related to Economics. They often like PPE grads from Oxford!

@TizerorFizz

Investment banking is related to Economics. They often like PPE grads from Oxford!

A lot of economics and finance roles prefer maths / computer science grads to train up into finance / business.

If he's thinking about taking a year out to do maths A level, I'd also suggest he looks at getting an internship or similar during that year. If he does want to go into investment (or other) banking, an internship will really help. I know several high-performing interns who were eventually taken on as grads.

Be aware that the intern schemes are just as competitive as grad schemes though. The reason I'm mentioning it is that the application cut-off date for some banks for next year can be as soon as the end of this Nov.