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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Economics degree without maths A level?

98 replies

Suzi69 · 17/11/2021 21:23

DS is in year 13 and is about to apply to go to university from September. The problem is that he wants to do an Economics degree but he hasn't taken maths A level The school advised him to take A levels he's interested in so he took history, chemistry and economics.

He's a little despondent as he found that the Economics courses he's most interested in at Russell group universities need maths A level. The courses he has found that offer Economics without maths A level are BA's, not BSc's. He suspects that for economics related jobs employers favor students who have A level maths. He's nervous about doing one of the degrees he's applied for as he hasn't studied maths for so long. Basically he wishes he'd done A level maths.

He's considering taking a gap year , taking A level maths in that year as an online accelerated courses and then he has a much wider choice of universities. Does this sound crazy? I don't know a lot about Economics and feel I'm not qualified to advise him.

OP posts:
TizerorFizz · 18/11/2021 12:15

Yes. Lots of hoops to go through for internships too!

Econ · 18/11/2021 12:22

In terms of which maths topics to study over summer, I would focus on the following:

  • Maths: differentiation, integration, compounding and discounting, simultaneous equations, and perhaps also brush up on percentages/fractions material from GCSE if forgotten.
  • Statistics: mean, variance, difference between sample and population, normal distribution and z-tests, t-tests. Brush up on interpretation of graphs (bar charts, line graphs, histograms) from GCSE. Could have a look at linear regression if time allows to get a bit of a head start.

This would set him up very will for first year maths and stats modules.

It is really only a small number of economics departments that require a maths A level for all of their programmes, and it is not necessarily a sign of quality in the sense that some of the best econ departments in the country offer a no maths A level route.

Needmoresleep · 18/11/2021 12:55

I am not understanding TigerorFizz. Economics covers a huge range. Some degrees really are applied maths. I think DS only had to take 2 economics courses out of 12 in his entire degree, he took three, and indeed managed a Masters without writing an essay. This would have opened the door to a range of "quant" jobs. Oddly, and Tizerorfizz' experience is clearly different, none of his peers seemed to go into investment banking, heading instead for the public sector, economic consultancy or more study.

Not having the maths would rule someone out of the very technical jobs but there is still a huge range. Essentially you can be a generalist with the standard degree attributes of argument and evidence, with a good understanding of economics. A good combination. I doubt graduates from any good economics department would leave without at least the equivalent of A level in statistics. (Mechaninot being particularly applicable to financial maths.)

I am not sure Tigerorfizz' information on Oxford PPE is up to date. The City is astonishingly international. People have degrees from all sorts of places. The key is getting your foot in the door. So a friend last weekend was telling me about their son with a BA economics from a mid range RG, and then a backroom operations job with a major international IB in a provincial banking centre, and now three years on has been promoted to trading in London. Ditto DH had a boss who graduated from Bournemouth with a Masters from Southampton Solent and then provincial backroom operations leading to a very solid upward London career trajectory.

Maths is useful in a number of careers but it is often a mistake to push it beyond a natural aptitude and interest. Better to find a path within that aptitude and identify other strengths and talents to find a good career fit.

Blubells · 18/11/2021 14:10

Edinburgh reccommend "Renshaw, Maths for Economics". They don't require A Level maths on entry

Actually they do require either A level Maths grade B or AS level grade A.

I studied Economics and it is indeed a very maths heavy degree. I personally wouldn't recommend it without enjoying A level maths!

ClerkMaxwell · 18/11/2021 14:18

Yes for Edinburgh you don't need an A level in maths but you do need an AS or a Higher or equivalent.

Suzi69 · 18/11/2021 14:58

@TizerorFizz

There will be other routes to go down but investment banking probably won’t be one without Maths A level. These jobs are fiercely competitive. Investment Banking is largely maths based. Just try for the best courses he can find at the best universities. There is a noticeable salary premium by going to RG (and a few others) in this subject. However there is a voluntary sector and public sector where it won’t be so competitive as investment banking!
Oh that may be why he's suddenly regretting not doing maths for A level. As you say there will be other avenues to go down.
OP posts:
Suzi69 · 18/11/2021 14:59

@Econ

In terms of which maths topics to study over summer, I would focus on the following:
  • Maths: differentiation, integration, compounding and discounting, simultaneous equations, and perhaps also brush up on percentages/fractions material from GCSE if forgotten.
  • Statistics: mean, variance, difference between sample and population, normal distribution and z-tests, t-tests. Brush up on interpretation of graphs (bar charts, line graphs, histograms) from GCSE. Could have a look at linear regression if time allows to get a bit of a head start.

This would set him up very will for first year maths and stats modules.

It is really only a small number of economics departments that require a maths A level for all of their programmes, and it is not necessarily a sign of quality in the sense that some of the best econ departments in the country offer a no maths A level route.

Thanks for this list!
OP posts:
Piggywaspushed · 18/11/2021 15:37

I'm a touch confused OP as your DS obviously wants the top RG unis (and needis right some not RG unis are top unis, especially Bath for economics) but I am sure yous aid his grades were about ABB/AAB? (note, I am not suggesting these aren't very good grades)

Those very very top unis, with or without maths require very very high grades.

What I meant by outside top 10 was still including some very very good universities- plenty of which are RG, or high performing.

1u1a · 18/11/2021 15:58

My DC’s economics A-level teacher (who had also previously taught at LSE) said that many students enjoy Economics A-level (they enjoy the theory) but get a total shock at degree level when it essentially becomes like a different subject (ie. very mathematical and statistical very quickly)!

This is why the ‘top’ unis for Economics - such as LSE, UCL or Oxbridge - require not only Maths A-level, but also Further Maths. This is the reality of it

Blubells · 18/11/2021 16:17

Yes indeed. The most highly ranked Economics degrees eg LSE, Warwick, Cambridge etc all require Further Maths A level. And even those Unis that don't require it will probably prefer candidates who have taken it.

cloudtree · 18/11/2021 16:22

I’d apply to Lancaster. It’s a top ranking university and it does both a ba and a bsc in economics depending on whether maths has been taken. It’s also a part 1 part 2 university meaning that he would pick three subjects in year 1 and then at the end of year 1 he can switch his degree choice around if he wants (which he may well want when he realises how much maths is involved at degree level even on the BA course)

Megan1992xx · 18/11/2021 16:25

I did a BA Economics and Statistics at Exeter so don't be put off by the BA bit. He will need Mathematics A level if he goes into most 'economics' jobs that is the reality the lack of it will hold him back. I suggest hiring a personal tutor if you have a uni close by you might find some undergraduates with A in maths and A in further maths offer tuition. It won't be cheap but it will be worth it good luck!

cloudtree · 18/11/2021 16:27

You need to think carefully about taking maths A Level separately and talk to the admission departments about whether they will accept it.

Charlieandlola · 18/11/2021 16:36

My ds is on a gap year atm and going to UWE in Bristol to do BA Economics. He didn;t do Maths at A level. There is a BSc for those with maths A level. At the open day last month the tutor said it was pretty much the same degree - just with more maths based modules in the Bsc.

I was impressed with the open day, course structure and facilities at UWE .

Megan1992xx · 18/11/2021 16:40

If he had an ambition to do Economics after GCSE he should have been advised to maths and further maths not what he likes!

Suzi69 · 18/11/2021 16:47

Thank you all for your thoughts, we have a lot to process and definitely feel more informed. I think DS's preference is to try to get into a BA Economics possibly with some tutoring in the summer.

OP posts:
Phphion · 18/11/2021 16:49

There are different types of economics jobs and different Economics degrees will equip you more or less for these jobs.

There are jobs that are heavily mathematical, for example in some areas of finance, insurance, pensions, plus more niche areas in transport, health, energy, etc., as well as some jobs in academia and consultancy. Big data and data mining, while it has generated more jobs in statistics, has also opened up demand for people who can do 'hard maths' in sectors where there previously wasn't much demand, the obvious example being advertising and communications. These kinds of jobs often involve day-to-day application of high maths and economic modelling in areas such as forecasting, planning, risk management and some policy-making. To do these jobs, you really need to be a very competent all-round mathematician and employers will not be looking for any person with an economics degree. The kinds of courses that prepare people for these jobs are the ones that usually require A Level maths and prefer further maths as well.

Then there are jobs that don't really require you to be a high level mathematician, but they do require you to be a very competent statistician. These are jobs where you are still doing maths, but you are dealing more in applied maths and data interpretation. There are a lot of economics jobs that fall in to this category and it's a growth area generally, although there are a lot of not especially well-paid jobs in this area (compared to the average salaries of economics graduates). Some employers in this area would just want someone with an economics degree, but more likely, they would want to assure themselves that the person had some confidence and experience with maths, as evidenced through their having taken maths / stats-related economics modules and/or having A Level maths.

Finally, there are economics jobs that don't really involve a lot of doing maths. These jobs would include some areas of management and business functions more generally, some parts of investment banking, technical writing, some policy-related areas and other jobs where you are working predominantly at a strategic, rather than a technical, level and your job primarily requires you to interpret data, to understand it and to be able to communicate and apply that understanding. For these jobs, employers would just want an economics degree (or often just any degree) and economics degrees with a strong applied focus or those that allow you to focus on things like economic policy, history, social statistics and so on would be a good choice.

For universities, the top tier of universities for economics - Cambridge, LSE, UCL and Warwick - all have highly mathematical courses. This reflects something of a schism in the academic economics world. You will find some top economists who are very strongly opposed to the BA Economics degrees even being allowed to call themselves an economics course because the maths content is so low and what they do is not 'real economics'. The highest ranked courses require A Level Maths and people with only A Level Maths rather than Further Maths have extra classes to bring them up to the standard of maths required. These courses prepare people well for the highly mathematical jobs and would not be a good choice for someone who doesn't particularly likely maths or have a good grounding in it.

There are, however, universities that are highly ranked universities generally, rather than specifically being powerhouses in economics, that have a lower maths content to their economics degrees. Durham economics is a good example of a course that is notoriously low on maths content but very strong on theory and application of economics and its graduates are very sought after for the interpreting and communicating-type jobs. Leeds has an excellent reputation in applied economics. Some of the Business School-based economics departments also have specialist courses in Business Economics, Industrial Economics or economics courses with a very strong business focus which tend to have less mathematical content, e.g. Nottingham, Lancaster, Cardiff.

The ones I would really avoid are the pseudo-mathematical courses that appear to offer a lot of maths but when you properly look at it, it is really low level stuff. These are the worst of all worlds, because you waste your time doing basic maths that will not be of interest to employers who want proper mathematical skills, and you could better spend this time doing the kinds of things that will be attractive to employers who want people who are able to put economics in a broader context.

CraftyGin · 18/11/2021 16:50

My DD did Economics, Politics and International Relations at Royal Holloway, University of London.

They have maths/non-maths streams.

Asiama · 18/11/2021 16:50

Hi OP, I loved A Level Economics but found degree Economics really boring. I had A level maths and found the mathsy Economics modules incredibly hard (in fact I think I failed one - the average score was 35%). My uni awarded a BA or BSc depending on the modules chosen (with no requirement for A Level maths), but no one that I knew was prevented from doing an Economics type job as a result of getting a BA. I personally wouldn't worry about taking a gap year if the purpose is to complete A Level maths. A BA isn't going to put him at a disadvantage, but if he's worried then I would suggest picking a uni where he can choose how many mathsy modules he wants to take to get either a BA or BSc.

Dozer · 18/11/2021 16:52

DS’s plan to do the maths a year ‘late’ sounds pretty good!

Dozer · 18/11/2021 16:53

Biased as love maths Grin

Megan1992xx · 18/11/2021 16:55

me too!

Needmoresleep · 18/11/2021 16:58

May I rail against the old MN trope of "top Universities". The best course is the one that is right for OPs son. Cambridge, LSE, UCL and Warwick almost certainly have the most mathematical courses and as such are favoured by those seeking to recruit for technical roles. But these really would not be right for someone who was not A* maths material and who chose not to take maths A level maths because he did not enjoy it.

There is a huge diversity of courses, lots of interesting joint degrees and often scope to switch at the end of the first year. Look at course content, and when there focus on applying for summer internships. A lot of recruitment is done via summer internships.

Rrrob · 18/11/2021 17:00

I did economics BA at Sheffield uni. I didn’t study maths at A level, and in fact, hate maths. First year compulsory micro (a bit of maths), macro and statistics. Second/ third year we had compulsory maths for economics and econometrics. I would say, if he is good at maths, it’s easier to get 100% in these exams and boost his overall mark. As someone who finds maths HARD, I still managed and graduated with a 2:1.

Megan1992xx · 18/11/2021 17:04

I work for a major Bank in a reasonably senior role and I am afraid that when we recruit preference is given to those with Maths level and hopefully Further Maths its the way of thinking and the ability to deal with the rigour of both. Sorry!

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