Oxbridge Aspirants 2022 part 3....Will they or won't they make it to interview? Our Mum nerves are in tatters!

[TangoWhiskyAlphaTango]

New thread for us, lots of lovely support whilst we wait. Some of our lovely DC now have interview dates whilst the rest of us hold our breath and try not to hassle our teens into checking their SPAM folders at least several times per day .

@pantjog: Would you mind telling me what your son's found to be the downsides of engineering at Cambridge? Is it the full on slog of it all?

Totally agree @CurlyhairedAssassin - if people want an independent/grammar/comprehensive debate maybe they can start another thread and we can keep this one focussed on supporting all our wonderful DC (and their parents!) through this stressful time.

It's feeling like crunch week for DD this week. We know her BMAT result is coming on Friday so at least that's a date to fix on rather than the unknown many others are facing. She's performing in a musical all week so that's quite a good distraction.

Sandy I think it may be no co-incidence that the parents keenest to shut down any legitimate discussion of educational inequality as it relates to Oxbridge are those with DC at the top independents with an extraordinary track record of getting their students in!

I've no interest in the discussion either as it happens, and as I say, my DC have all been rightly held to account for their grammar school education

Managed on a shoe string.

I'm very happy to talk about educational inequality (plenty of experience of it myself) but that's not what this thread was started for.

@Acquacup

Going to a grammar school gives children a massive advantage, surely. Mixing with bright, motivated and well supported peers. On average no doubt better teachers. So much focus on the academics. Expertise in teaching bright children. Setting, to the nth degree, even though only high ability children get into the school in the first place. High expectations and knowledge and experience on Oxbridge, etc. My DC2's comprehensive obviously takes all the local children, and it doesn't set at all. Not even for maths and English.

On average no doubt better teachers. Are you having a laugh? We regularly think that a great TV show would be to swap the staff in my inner-city, hugely deprived comprehensive with the staff in the very exclusive private school across the city. I'd have the easiest week of my life. If you can teach where I do, motivate pupils and love your job you can teach well anywhere. I'd love to see some teachers in the private sector cope with what we do and still get the top kids through coursework and exams to university. Sorry, but that's red rag to a bull. I choose where to teach because that's where I'm making a difference not because I'm of low quality. Jesus!

Curlyhairedassasin

Maybe you're right with England and Wales, but here it wasn't possible with the sheer amount of evidence needed.

Apologies, don't want to keep the debate going either, but the comment about state schools having weaker teachers is beyond the pale.

Sandy I think whoever started the comments about school type did it as it relates to Oxbridge entrance, so it seems to fall squarely within the remit of this thread, if anyone wishes to pursue it. No-one should really censor legitimate posts or areas of discussion.

I rarely comment about indie v state. I know a bit about grammars and sometimes ping in a comment here and there but other than that, the threads which focus on indie v state are very repetitive. The initiatives taken by Oxbridge and Cambridge in relation to educational provision is at least newer and fresher.

There was a TV show that swapped the students once. Very interesting.the state was Bemrose in Derby. Programme still on YouTube.

@CurlyhairedAssassin In a word, yes. Compounded by the covid effect. For example, last year DS found that his lecturers would routinely run over the 1-hour slot allocated to a particular lecture. When students complained, they were told to play it at double speed... The issue wasn't that they were lazy, but simply the fact that they were supposed to fit a quart into a pint pot. 8 hours of lectures/supos on the timetable; more than that in reality; even more than that of course with preparation and study time.

DS has shown me his timetable for next week. It's more or less 9 to 5 solidly, sometimes without a break for lunch. And that's just the scheduled stuff, not including preparation for supos etc.

Thankfully this year his DoS is understanding and has some sort of pastoral approach. Last year it was sink or swim and DS sank.

I think it's all worsened by the fact that he is severely dyslexic which affects him in surprising ways. Following a lecture online if the lecturer has a strong accent, for example, he finds very challenging. Writing notes while listening to a lecture, ditto. Writing an essay -- next to impossible. Luckily he doesn't have many of those. He's also acquired various bits of tech to help, like an ipad which he can write on.

He's got the ability in terms of the subject, but the sheer quantity of work is very very tough.

Wholly agree Puffalicious.

Grammars do not attract the best teachers by any means, for exactly the political and ethical reason Puffalicious has just expressed. Of course grammars can attract absolutely excellent teachers, on the whole those who buy in to the widening access programmes led by the top grammars. But sometimes a post can attract no-one appointable at all. Pay rates are no higher than in the rest of the state sector and many teachers are just nowhere near up to challenging the brightest kids. I would guess that the only schools which can always rely on top quality teachers applying for posts will be the very top indies. Plenty of teachers at the middling indies appear to be absolutely dire. You've got to wonder why parents pay for that quality of teaching.

I'm not sure if I should weigh in on the indie vs comp vs grammar debate. My children have all been home educated then gone to a comp for sixth form. On many measures they are extremely privileged -- but when DD1 went to Oxford she was stunned by how well prepared her peers from independent schools were. "They finished the syllabus by Easter!" she breathed with amazement. DD2 recently went to a subject conference at a local independent school and couldn't get over the standard of the facilities and the confidence of the pupils.

Their school gets a good number in to Oxbridge each year and is "not your standard comp" -- but there are still plenty of kids there from deprived backgrounds, and plenty of kids with low expectations of themselves. The library is ok but my DD has never been inside because it's never open when she's free. Our local public library has been remodelled twice in the last few years, each time at least halving its book stock. That's the sort of thing state school kids are up against.

I can't remember where I found the stat but I think independent school pupils still have a slightly higher acceptance rate than state school pupils.

piggy I'll try and check that out.

Thanks goodbyestranger, good to know others acknowledge that quality teaching is not measured by where you work! There are excellent, middling and poor teachers everywhere, just like any other job. Fortunately, those not up to pushing the bright kids are weeded out by head of departments and given classes more suited to their skillset. And some teachers are genuinely more suited to a younger cohort or ones of different abilities. I have worked with truly inspirational teachers in the state sector and fail to see how there could be any better practitioners elsewhere.

If I taught kids with engaged parents, positive home environments, a strong work ethic and tutors I'd have a very, very easy job.

@SayYouDontMind Check your PMs.

@pantjog Sorry to hear that your DS struggled last year. I'm worried about the pressure if my DS ended up there. It's the same at Imperial I believe. Doesn't seem a good work/life balance to me, but I guess these kids may go into demanding jobs, so it will stand them in good stead.

DS has also mentioned some of his online lectures massively overrunning their one-hour time slot. This happened last year and continues this term. If you have arranged a supo or tennis coaching or whatever to follow the lecture, finding time to finish the lecture when you have a high number of contact hours isn't easy. DS will catch up over the Christmas vac but he also needs to complete a project and prep for "mock exams". His department haven't run these before but hopefully they will be similarly low key to the Collections that DD (O) does at the start of each term.

2 of my 3 children go to a Grammar school.. and one to a local average/just below average comp. no private tutors to pass 11+ entry. Eldest (at comp) had wonderful English and drama teachers who were very passionate… and my dd became passionate too! She achieve AAA in A levels and is in 1st year at Warwick studying English Lit. She would never have achieved this in a fast paced grammar school.
My year 13 ds has applied to Cambridge: occasionally 1 student from his school gets into Oxbridge… some years 0 do.. and occasional up to 3. Not particularly high numbers considering it’s a “Grammar” school. The teachers are the same as anywhere really: he has some that are great.. others who are weak. In the subjects where teachers are weak I think the kids that love to learn, almost self-teach themselves .
Not sure if son will get an interview or not, I’m not sure his Engaa was great… he doesn’t give much away 🤣

For definite it's not true that you get 'better teachers' at Independent/Grammars necessarily.

What is true is that in schools which are 11-16 (as many many comprehensives are), the teachers who are passionate about teaching A Level will look for jobs in schools that are 11-18. Very few independents/grammars are 11-16. Many comprehensives are.

It's all big picture - there are lots of amazing teachers in all types of schools.

2ds at comp 1ds went to grammar school in London, strong/weak teachers in both schools, the weak teachers don’t show up as easily in the grammar because the pupils canto a certain extent teach themselves and parents are v invested in grades, but another problem with the grammar is the local independent schools, one year several strong teachers were poached by a nearby independent, double the salary was too tempting to turn down. We live in sw London so lots of schools around and for a couple of years it seemed one particular indp was using the grammar as a training ground to pick up very good teachers. One of ds teachers(a very good one) was also approached and declined because he enjoyed working in the state sector but his wife worked in the city so he had less financial pressure. I don’t blame the teachers at all but it made me feel a lot more negatively about the private school in question.

I said that ON AVERAGE teachers in grammar schools were likely to be better (for bright children) than teachers in comprehensive schools. I'm not talking about the best comprehensive schools - comprehensive schools in general. I also didn't mention private schools at all in that comment, but people have responded as if I did.
I think it's unlikely that parents would make such a massive effort to send their children to grammar schools if they employed terrible teachers. For bright children, I personally believe that streaming and/or setting is an advantage. I would have liked to have had that for my DC2, but it wasn't possible. It slows everything down if all levels are taught in same class throughout secondary. At grammar school, children are with others of the same level, often with different people in different sets for different subjects, and with teachers who are experienced in teaching bright children.
There are lots of variables, obviously. I've had children in bad private (was closed down in the end), good but not top private, grammar and comprehensive. My favourite was the grammar, but I think it was a particularly nice one, Nice atmosphere. The good private was best for extra-curricular.

We don't have grammars around here, so thankfully no sense of a 'brain drain' to grammars. Mainly the people who leave to go to private want an easier life (better behaviour, more free periods, slightly better pay, more opportunities if they are sporty or creative people, reduced fees for DCs) rather than because they are inspired/inspirational/talented. They don't necessarily get what they want but they certainly don't come back. Anyone who ahs left my school and gone to DH's in a leadership position has often not been very welcome bringing in their state school concepts of tracking, measuring, target setting, scrutiny ,marking regimes and regulations and endless meetings and initiatives!

I am I think) an extremely hard working, intelligent and committed sate school teacher (and lover of mixed ability , but an argument for another thread) witha DH who works in a private school and we chose the state sector for our DSs.

Comments accidentally inferring that I am lesser than my DH/ other teachers or that I chose wrongly for my DCs are actively upsetting me , albeit not deliberately, so can we change the subject now?

Much appreciated!

I'd also be grateful if this thread could return to info sharing and support please. The debate is an interesting one that could maybe move to a thread of its own? If fir no other reason than I think it will fray parental nerves which we could do without...

Thank you to all teachers and school staff for everything you're doing, in all types of school. And good luck to all the students, I know they won't all get in but I hope they all find brilliant opportunities which enhance their lives.

Piggy you're a teacher, you must be tougher than to be actively upset by generalised and inaccurate comments about the quality of teachers across the various sectors! I'd worry for you in the classroom if the comment made by Acquacup really got to you.

The reality is that there are some shockingly poor quality teachers out there in all sectors and, obviously, excellent ones. That said, I think it must be fair to say that only the top independents will be able to secure really good quality teachers/teaching right across across the curriculum. I would be astonished if you couldn't identify a single weak teacher in your school, and unless your DH teaches at a Westminster or St Paul's type of school (there aren't that many of those schools around the country), I would be equally astonished if he couldn't do the same. It's tended to be the case in the past decade or so that subjects such as yours have been oversubscribed, which pushes up the quality generally. Nip over to science and the situation - yes, even for top grammars - has been parlous.

@Piggywaspushed you are doing a brilliant job and I hope the parents and students at your school appreciate you. I could never do your job and am very grateful that you and others do.

Let's get back to fretting about the issue at hand. Who is still waiting for Cambridge updates?