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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Best University History course for a state educated London boy?

104 replies

Chicchicchicchiclana · 24/09/2021 19:52

Son would like to feel at home on a course with fellow students from a mix of backgrounds where he won't feel out of place for not having a private or grammar education. Oxbridge is already ruled out in his head for obvious reasons.

So where else is less rarified but absolutely top notch for teaching history?

Advice/opinions very welcome.

OP posts:
KaycePollard · 26/09/2021 12:59

I said it was sad because, as @EdmontinaDonsAutumnalHues says, the OP’s DS and the OP have such narrow stereotypes about other people. Not because the DS had ruled out Oxbridge, but the reason for him, and his mother, for doing so.

They are both operating with wilful deliberate ignorance. For example, if the OP’s DS chooses to read History at Exeter (an excellent department, well up in a “top ten” list of excellent places to study history) he is FAR more likely to meet with privately-educated students, than at Ox.

I hold absolutely no candle, banner or torch for private education. It promotes division and hierarchy where we don’t need them. But the OP and her son’s stereotypes are a kind of reverse prejudice which is sad. Well, worse than sad, actually … limiting and ignorant.

LlamasintheFog · 26/09/2021 13:10

Yes deliberately disingenuous reading of my sad comment. Of course it's not sad to not want to go to Oxford or Cambridge, but ruling it out - and all the opportunities it affords - because you think they're full of poshos and you won't fit in, is pretty sad.

liveforsummer · 26/09/2021 13:17

@Doubleraspberry

There are wider issues around Oxbridge that mean it just doesn’t suit everyone. The short intense terms for one, which can be very overwhelming. The history course is amazing in its variety but it means much of the first year at least is spent on very independent study, reliant on relationships with individual supervisors with an hour’s contact time a week often without even any relevant lectures running in the same term you’re studying a period of history. It can be difficult to meet people outside your own college in the first year if doing history and colleges can be small, so the number of people to make friends with can feel limited.

Some people absolutely thrive on all the above, but others find it hard.

While these are all very good and valid reasons to decide if it is a good fit, I don't think any of those were the 'obvious reasons' that OP was talking about.
EdmontinaDonsAutumnalHues · 26/09/2021 13:28

I wish I felt less invested in this - but, even apart from the purely intellectual issue, it cuts deep.

As someone who has spent a lifetime encountering discriminations - I’m thinking about how 20th century non-internet Mumsnet must have been full of parents asking how their children could avoid universities containing people like me.

Can you really not see how wrong it is, OP?

Doubleraspberry · 26/09/2021 13:29

No, I didn’t think they were. But in case anyone else was reading this thread, and saw the very clear steer towards Oxbridge, I did want to add some balance!

This thread has made me think about exactly what challenged me in my undergraduate years and I think ultimately it was being surrounded by (a) people who undeniably had a lot more financial privilege than I did, which went quite outside what sort of school they’d attended, but meant they had very different life experiences to me which I found tricky and (b) confident people, which I think private schooling often engenders. So to me, ‘normal people’ were those who had to work in holidays and count pennies, and who had evident self doubt! I was desperate to go to a uni with a union, with cheap booze and ways of meeting different people all the time, like my friends at other universities had. I actually found living in college for three years, rather than sharing a house, hard work and a bit isolating. I absolutely loathed the drinking societies, which felt like the manifestation of the worst of upper class privilege.

I was basically a square peg in a round hole. I would guess that some of those issues would still be a problem, but they didn’t rest on what sort of school my fellow students had gone to. I would guess that some other universities might have alleviated some of them but had far more of the horrible drinking society culture that felt like the most obvious manifestation of ‘poshness’.

I went on to a job which was in some ways a continuation of Oxbridge (a mistake!), but it does mean that I spent of my post-18 life around people from vastly different backgrounds to my own. I’m perfectly friendly with, and enjoy the company of adults who went to public and private school, but none of them would ever (or did ever) been part of the conspicuously rah element anywhere.

Xenia · 26/09/2021 14:00

My 5 children ( private schools) thought it was too hard to get into Oxbridge so not worth trying so did not try. There are lots of reasons people do not want to put themselves through that process.

however if the reason is private schoolers for the poster's son then Oxbridge might mean he is with more (70%) not fewer people from state schools so he may be picking in a sense the state school option if he goes to Oxbridge compared with somewhere with a higher % of private schoolers.

chesirecat99 · 26/09/2021 15:08

@Chicchicchicchiclana

It's not sad ffs. He doesn't want to go to Oxford or Cambridge, there's nothing sad about it. He wants to go to University elsewhere.
That's totally fine but it would be sad if he is ruling it out for this reason:

Son would like to feel at home on a course with fellow students from a mix of backgrounds where he won't feel out of place for not having a private or grammar education. Oxbridge is already ruled out in his head for obvious reasons.

State school students outnumber privately educated students at many of the colleges eg 96% of students at Mansfield are from state schools.

UCL, LSE and Kings are all highly ranked for History, if he is happy to stay in London. UCL and LSE offer generous bursaries too.

lockdownmadnessdotcom · 27/09/2021 17:56

I think Southampton, Hull or York would be worth looking at. I was particularly impressed by the options available at Southampton (at least in theory, if they run them all!)

My husband went to Oxford to study history but Southampton was his insurance all those years ago so it has pedigree. Not far from London but far enough to be away and feel independent.

My ds applied for ancient history at Exeter and Glasgow but then decided he didn't really want to do ancient history. He's actually ended up doing politics and international relations in York, after applying there for history and politics originally. Southampton was his insurance and he also applied to Hull.

lockdownmadnessdotcom · 27/09/2021 18:10

As for St Andrews, doesn't it have more privately educated kids than Oxbridge do? Same goes for Exeter?

If it's any consolation OP, my ds wasn't keen on going somewhere with a load of "poshos" either even though he will probably be considered a "posho" with his southern English accent in his accommodation in York which seemed to be largely full of Northerners Grin And although he went to a comprehensive, there are comprehensives and comprehensives...

Wbeezer · 27/09/2021 18:37

You're right about more privately educated students at St Andrews but quite a lot of them are international students so not stereotypical "poshos" (although some of are rather well off ti say the least).

notnowbernadette · 27/09/2021 18:45

Sheffield University is a brilliant and the vast majority of graduates talk fondly of it. You wouldn't really know who was from state and private schools unless you went questioning people and its really not worth focusing on.

Palavah · 27/09/2021 19:22

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@Palavah

No, not a joke. St Andrews is usually in top 3 universities in U.K. with Cambridge and Oxford, but this year St Andrews is #1, outranking Oxford and Cambridge. Their application process is standard UCAS process for U.K. students.
news.st-andrews.ac.uk/archive/top-of-the-class/[/quote]
Not querying their history credentials, just the idea that one would go to St Andrews avoid public school alum.

JustSinginInTheRain · 27/09/2021 19:26

State comprehensive educated daughter went to York to study History and loved it. She got on a great training course afterwards too.

TizerorFizz · 27/09/2021 21:37

@notnowbernadette
I think you make an important point. Lots of students wouldn’t question where others went to school when the vast majority are state educated. It’s a bit of a non starter for a conversation. It only becomes an issue when private students are a bit more obvious. Usually because there are more of them.

VanCleefArpels · 03/10/2021 13:03

It’s attitudes like yours that only serve to perpetuate the Oxbridge stereotype. If he’s clever enough apply to Oxbridge FFS - otherwise when will anything change?

StColumbofNavron · 03/10/2021 13:14

I think he needs to narrow down the sort of history he would like to do. I’m a modernist but my DS1 is Ancient and Medieval so that’s what he will look for in a uni. If he doesn’t yet have a clear preference and wants to try things out then a Scottish uni because the first two years allow for a lot of flexibility. Or, a uni with a very large history department to allow for the broadest range of research interests. Lots of those already mentioned are good ideas. Most will have some theoretical/practical compulsory modules so he may not be able to avoid that altogether as another poster’s DC seems to have - they are pretty intrinsic skills, though agree not the most fun.

SeasonFinale · 03/10/2021 16:24

Of course it is fine if he doesn't want to go to Oxbridge. It will be a shame if he is basing that choice on its cohort when infact last year it was closer to 80% state educated.

The reason why people were asking whether the suggestion of St Andrews was a joke was because it has actually has a higher proportion independently educated students than Oxbridge.

You can access the contents of the courses for unis from the faculty websites and he can take a view as to which he fancies. He can also take a look at league tables to see which are considered good unis (but suggest avoiding Guardian). He can also look at stats on sites like High Fliers to see which unis graduate employers tend to recruit from.

BasiliskStare · 03/10/2021 17:57

I can understand he wants to go to a different university - but if the reason is "rarified" I would urge him to think twice - My son was there and his circle of friends were from all sorts of schools and 6th form colleges - they found their friends. Look at the statistics. Also not everyone from a private school is dreadful. If he is clever enough Oxford is a fabulous place to study history - he may not get a place - but would it be worth 1 line on a UCAS application and give it a go.

I would say look at the syllabus - I think ( and someone would need to check this ) Modern history is anything beyond roughly 275 AD - no Russian history pretty much required. ( Oxford) - The range of study is fantastic.

If he has a set idea in his head about e.g. Oxford - well - he has but I suspect what he thinks of is not exactly how the university is.

Other than that Exeter is good for history but also a reputation for private school pupils - My niece is there and has not found it so - she has found her friends. Yes Sheffield , York , UCL , Kings , but I think he must realise a balance between course and where he feels comfortable. Just do not let him think Oxford he would not feel comfortable. Lancaster , not sure how Birmingham is for history .

I wish him well whatever but just posting to say modern Oxford is not Brideshead - lots of very nice sensible young people who will not make anyone feel uncomfortable. There will be people at any university you do not like - as long as you meet enough people you can be friends with - that is enough

All best @Chicchicchicchiclana

But others have said similar so I wish your DS well

BasiliskStare · 03/10/2021 18:13

Oops @Chicchicchicchiclana other points - as well as points above - - e.g. Oxford has a lot of 1 - 1 teaching - so tutorials as well as lectures and 2 - the accommodation tends to be inexpensive compared to a lot of other universities , this can make life easier. So just points to consider. But if he is implacable - & if he is - I would just ask him to consider not applying because he is surrounded by "poshos" - I don't think he will - but he will have to (Oxford have to take a pretest and an interview ) as well as UCAS form .

His choice I have said my piece. Flowers

defnotadomesticgoddess · 05/12/2021 17:34

Southampton and Manchester (uni of) both have very good history departments. As a pp said would be good to research exactly what type of history you can study at each. Southampton offered a lot of modules on a pick & mix basis. My dd decided not to study at UEA as the modules available weren’t What she was interested in.

cantkeepawayforever · 05/12/2021 17:50

DS's insurance option was History (his first choice was music conservatoire, which greatly to his own surprise he got into and is very happy at).

He had very specific views about what period and slant (modern, predominantly political) he wanted the compulsory parts of the course to be based on, and, while we didn't in the end get very far with the choice (had his UCAS conservatoire offer before UCAS proper deadline), it was only by scrupulous reading of each course at each university that he could pick out where he wanted to go.

It seems odd to have 'the type of previous education / social background' as the primary selection criteria, as opposed to course content. Are you sure he can't narrow it down a bit through a mix of research on the various ranking sites, reading the course details and attending either higher education fairs or open days?

Wigeon · 05/12/2021 19:04

Not very impressed at the reverse snobbery and prejudice displayed here, with a massive assumption about a) Oxbridge in general and b) what all students from private school are like. Also assertions not based on evidence.

This closed thinking and incorrect assumptions and doesn’t bode well for achieving well in a history degree…

Some interesting stats for you regarding the percentage of state school students at different universities:

Cambridge: 72%
Oxford: 69%
Bristol: 71%
Durham: 62%
UCL: 67%
LSE: 67%
Exeter: 64%
Edinburgh: 63%

And here is a really interesting article with some nice graphs showing the change over time in state school students at good universities. Guess what: Oxford and Cambridge have both consistently improved over time, whereas some other universities are getting worse…

I did history at Cambridge, and barely knew what school most people I met went to - it’s not that interesting to ask, and it’d be pretty rude to then say “and was that state or private?”. All of my close friends I made there went to state school, as the college I went to had a fairly high proportion of state students.

DontKeepTheFaith · 05/12/2021 19:32

Ds1 went to a bog standard comp with a ‘requires improvement’ ofsted and is now at Oxford.

He is the most unassuming kid but is loving it and does not feel out of place at all. Most of the kids he’s met are state educated.

Oxbridge offers an awesome university experience so your DS really shouldn’t rule it out.

BIWI · 05/12/2021 19:37

If he's able enough and qualified enough to go to Oxford/Cambridge he would be foolish to turn it down - whether we like it or not, the old boy network still operates and he would get access to all manner of privileges and opportunities that he wouldn't at other universities.

Call me cynical, if you like, but I've seen this in action!

That said, DS1 was a state school-educated boy and did well at his A-levels, and did history at Sussex, which I think is probably both more mixed demographically as well as being more diverse in terms of its population.

It also has the advantage of being pretty close to Sarf London which does make life a lot easier!

blubells · 06/12/2021 19:05

It seems odd to have 'the type of previous education / social background' as the primary selection criteria, as opposed to course content.

I agree. I had no idea whether my Uni friends had been to private or state or foreign schools. Why does it matter Confused?

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