Best University History course for a state educated London boy?

[Chicchicchicchiclana]

Son would like to feel at home on a course with fellow students from a mix of backgrounds where he won't feel out of place for not having a private or grammar education. Oxbridge is already ruled out in his head for obvious reasons.

So where else is less rarified but absolutely top notch for teaching history?

Advice/opinions very welcome.

However at places like Sheffield and Liverpool, the privately educated student is a fairly rare sighting.

That’s equally as untrue as some of the things you’re disputing.

My dd and her friend (both ex London state school) are both doing history courses - in Leeds and Manchester actually. But they chose the course based on the content and the city based on the social life. There will be a high proportion of private school children at Russell Group Universities reading history, but that shouldn't stop your son. Some of them might even be nice! Some of the state school educated children might not be nice! But he will find his tribe somewhere at any large university and he will also learn to mix with people that aren't like him, just like he'll have to in his job later on.

Seriously, what is the point of education when people begin with attitudes like this?

I could weep for your son, OP. He wants to study people and ideas over time - but you’ve already encouraged him to close his mind to learning from anyone who isn’t exactly like him?

Shame on you.

I'm asking for advice on course content, future careers, best place for which course

We can’t do this research for your son.

Your SON needs to look at a few history department websites. He can start with the UCAS website, but he needs to look at the working websites of departments to see the range of modules they offer, how they generally assess, how they teach, what specialisms the research-active staff have, what books they are writing, and how that informs research-led teaching.

In History, it makes a difference whether the staff are world leading researchers. Students then get challenging research-led teaching.

And YOU Need to get a grip, and stop your prejudice limiting your son’s world view. I’m state-educated, Oxbridge, and a professor in a cognate discipline to history (one of my degrees is in history). I went where the best research and teaching was available. I’ve been very successful and had a fantastic time at 3 different universities as Ann undergrad and postgrad. People are people are people, and we can choose those whom we spend time with.

DD is going to study history (starts next week). She is going to Cambridge (from a state school) but the other courses she thought looked really good were:
York, Exeter, Bristol, Sheffield, Liverpool, Warwick, UCL, Edinburgh, Durham and SOAS. Birmingham might also have been on that list but I can't recall.
She then narrowed down further by not wanting to be in London (too close to home). She didn't want a campus which i personally think narrowed it down too much for her as it ruled out some really excellent courses that she loved the look of.
The uniguide is good for narrowing down a bit based on grade expectations etc and then you can link to each course from the website. I think it's got a bit more difficult to navigate the site in the last 12 months but if you're looking at straight history it will be easy enough (seems to be harder for joint degrees though that might be my incapabilities more than anything else).
If he doesn't like the idea of Oxbridge then that's fair enough but I think there are unis on my list above which have less diversity - I guess I would just try to be aware that popular perceptions can be misperceptions. DD hasn't started yet but one of her preferred criteria for deciding on unis was diverse intake (which is why she panicked and ruled one out after applying there based on stuff she read online and ruled out another before applying for the same reason) but it didn't put her off applying to Cambridge.

Oh and once she'd linked to each course she looked at the "required" modules in first and second year and the optional modules. She then made lists of pros and cons of each (to her. Obviously someone else's pros and cons would have been different!)
For example several universities seemed to have a lot of required modules on "how to study history" which I'm sure would have been more interesting than she perceived but she was "but I want to study history not learn about how to" and that put her off some. The detail on the websites of the departments is very good though.

UCL!

My dear friend is one of the history professors there.
My son (state school in London from nursery to Sixth Form) goes to UCL.
UCL has one of the best history departments in the world PLUS the location is fabulous. The British Museum is on its doorstep.
Your DS should definitely check it out.

@RobinPenguins

However at places like Sheffield and Liverpool, the privately educated student is a fairly rare sighting.

That’s equally as untrue as some of the things you’re disputing.

My friends with privately educated children going to unis in the last 2 years have children attending: Nottingham, Bath, Nottingham Trent, Portsmouth, Essex, Hertfordshire, UEA, Liverpool. My friends with state educated children going to uni in the last 2 years have children attending: Oxford, Cambridge, Leeds, Sheffield, Newcastle, Edinburgh, St Andrews, UCL, Nottingham, Bristol (in spades), Exeter, Imperial, Falmouth, ARU, Kent, Durham. Both are pretty wide ranging really.

Ironically what your list reveals, @Chilldonaldchill is that the state school educated children aimed higher and achieved more, in terms of the quality, reputation and challenge of the universities they entered, compared with the rather desultory list of the paid-for educated children ….

@KaycePollard

Ironically what your list reveals, *@Chilldonaldchill* is that the state school educated children aimed higher and achieved more, in terms of the quality, reputation and challenge of the universities they entered, compared with the rather desultory list of the paid-for educated children ….

And that actually reflects school achievements too which is why, with a few clear exceptions when local schools are truly truly awful, I never understand why people choose indies. To be scrupulously fair more of the state school students went to selective schools than the indie students - but by no means all and the spread across the unis is quite representative of selectives and comprehensives.

Some paid-for education is good for lower ability/achieving pupils 0perhaps - the extras that parents pay for: small classes, extra coaching etc etc probably gives the less intellectually gifted pupil achieve a university place.

Of course, the “top” paid-for schools are often academically cut throat. But a run of the mill indie might give a lower than average pupil a bit of a leg up.

But it sounds as though @Chicchicchicchiclana’s DS is a high achiever. The method your DD used @Chilldonaldchill is excellent. It’s what the OP’s son should start to do.

Don't want to derail the thread however wanted to reply to @Chilldonaldchill

I went to a state grammar and my DH went to a top London private school. He went to Leeds and I went to UCL. However his confidence and self belief was far superior. Don't get my wrong I am fairly confident myself but it's different.

This is the main reason for me wanting to send my kids to very long established indies- I believe it will shape their character.

These OPs are baffling, infuriating and fundamentally insulting. Plus innumerate.

@RobinPenguins
HESA puts Sheffield and Liverpool as two universities that take most state students in their top 30 universities. Others are Strathclyde. Surrey, Lancaster, Queen Mary, Queens Belfast, There’s very few percentage points between any of them so although my comment was flippant it was based on published data. However I still wouldn’t choose a university based on preconceived notions about other students.

Thanks for the interesting pointers. Much food for thought here.

Private schools contain kids from a mix of backgrounds. Some will be on full bursaries. I would encourage your son to look at the universities that are highly rated for his course.

@myrtilles

Private schools contain kids from a mix of backgrounds. Some will be on full bursaries. I would encourage your son to look at the universities that are highly rated for his course.

Not really. A tiny number are on bursaries.

There are around 1,350 pupils at the school. In academic year 2018/19, 20% of boys received financial support towards their fees (averaging a 67% reduction), with 90 boys currently receiving a 100% reduction. For academic year 2019/20, £7.2 million has been budgeted for Financial Aid.

From the most famous public school in the country. I’d have said 20% on bursaries was not insubstantial.

Obviously the wealthier institutions can afford a greater number of bursaries. (And availability is very much less at prep level.) But a not inconsiderable number of pupils arrive at university having had a public school education for free, or for less than the full cost.

Not really.

A tiny number are on bursaries. One third at my ds school

Ironically what your list reveals, @Chilldonaldchill is that the state school educated children aimed higher and achieved more, in terms of the quality, reputation and challenge of the universities they entered, compared with the rather desultory list of the paid-for educated children s school

The biggest value added for independent schools is at the just below average level. Outside of the big London independents many people choose private education for the small classes, better SEN support and extra curriculars. Those ‘desultory’ Destinations ( your word not mind) may represent a massive achievement for those dc and also the employment stats for some courses at the new universities far outweigh some of the more esoteric courses at the more rarified destinations.

My ds was at such a school, his contemporaries are at Durham, Cambridge, St Andrew’s , Sheffield ( most popular by far) Nottingham, Exeter, Oxford Brooks, Newcastle, Reading, Liverpool and York also Harper Adams and various music , art and drama colleges.

To be honest OP, your son needs to do what every other young person does - which is get himself on UCAS or uni websites and research different history courses. It’s a massively varied subject and how can anyone on here advise when nobody even knows where his interests lie or what his predicted grades are?

If he is going to chose a uni based on narrow-minded prejudice or avoiding what he perceives as certain types of people, he might as well nut bother, frankly. Sorry to be harsh, but the way you are going about this is beyond ridiculous.

Agree @moch11

I find it really sad that a young person is inculcated with such prejudices which could stop him from really learning and broadening his world view. And in the subject close to my heart, which requires subtle and complex thinking and weighing of evidence.

My ds found unifrog good for narrowing his choices . He is also doing a humanities subject that caries at lot. He then narrowed it down on compulsory courses and the general feel of the modules . Don’t get too hung up in individual modules as they can change for perfectly good reasons such as people moving universities .

My DC's Oxbridge college admits almost 80% of students from state schools. The very first questions they were asked by their peers were 'Are you a Tory?' and 'did you go to private school?'. (They answered 'No' and 'Yes, but on a full bursary'.)

So, yes, if you apply to Christ Church, you might find yourself mixing more with privately-educated people, but there are now more and more colleges at which this is absolutely not the case.

There are lots of good reasons not to choose Oxbridge, but fearing you'll be out of place as a state-educated student is not one of them.

@Doubleraspberry

Does he have a passion for a particular part of history? It’s worth him looking at the details of various syllabuses to see what interests him. The courses will vary so much in content depending on who is in the department. If he wants to know whether the department has a good reputation there are various league tables which work on different measures but usually broadly come out in similar places.

And then does he know what type of university he wants to go to, other than not Oxbridge? Campus? Big city? Within easy reach of a weekend at home or as far away as he can get?! There will be so many options for him that the hygiene factors are worth considering.

Some non-Oxbridge have reputations for being very rah. Not sure how accurate any of it is though, but to be aware of. The Student Room website is probably a good resource in sounding places out.

I would never say someone to Oxbridge if they didn’t really want to. There are definite pluses but also minuses. I do think it’s changed hugely since I went but as a girl from a comp and a lower middle class background I spent three years wishing I’d gone somewhere with ‘normal’ people, so I can sympathise with what your DS is feeling.

This. Look at the syllabuses to:see if it covers the aspects of history he wants to study, and also decide what type of place he wants to live in.

Oxbridge had a much wider mix of people now than in the past.

I think your DS is making big assumptions about people. Privately educated DC can be nice and normal too!

Contra to what others have said, DS's comments re his small Oxford college were that there were more Austrians than Northerners, and that while many were state educated most were from Grammars or 'those' very geared up specialist state 6th forms. Nobody from a 'bog standard' comp.

FWIW I went to Leeds in the 1980s from a bog standard north Manchester grammar school. Nearly all of my friends there turned out to have been to private / posh public schools. They were really very nice!