Help me to help DD choose a degree. Most likely Philosophy!

[flopi77]

DD is looking at Philosophy as a degree, which is great, but DH and I are feeling a bit out of our depth. DD knows about rankings, tables etc, but all the specs for Philosophy degrees seem so similar. I thought I'd post here hoping someone might have more knowledge - where's the best teaching? I don't necessarily mean the most prestigious, more dynamic and global, rather than just Western philosophy.

Then might there be degrees which DD just hasn't thought of? She's chosen Philosophy because it's her favourite A-level, but could there be other degrees which she'd fit and just hasn't thought of. Maybe Anthropology? Trouble is DH and I know nothing about that either! Her A-levels are Philosophy, History and Sociology (AAA predictions).

Any thoughts would be great. Neither DH or I went to University, so we're feeling a bit on the back foot and sadly her school seem as clueless as us!

English degree holders don't often do well in our interviews. Especially male ones. With a good grade, they fly through the shortlisting as they write well but crash and burn at the interview stage.
More often than not, our young English graduate applicants come with an enormously inflated sense of self and totally convinced that they are gods gift to our organisation. More often than not, they really aren't. Ditto sociology.

Purely based on my experience, the graduates who are worth their salt and will hit the ground running, get on with jobs small and large and show excellent professional behaviour hold an Economic degree, any science degree, psychology and law. Media graduates can also be quite competent with a great attitude but not if they clearly think the job is beneath them and they are just applying until their great Film / journalism breakthrough. I'd be interested in interviewing a Philosophy graduate.

[quote TizerorFizz]@taxiforme.
I agree with what you say. Converting to law can be expensive if there’s no employer to pay. No guarantee of a training contract or pupillage. There are thousands of law degree holders who never become lawyers so they are seeking employment in many other areas of work.

There might be science in Philosophy but employers know it’s not maths or engineering! Regarding employability it’s about the same as history and a bit better than English. That might reflect it being more of a RG subject and that fairly bright people take it. However getting a job isn’t purely about subject when you are competing against English. history, Law and psychology etc grads.All these grads will be fairly equal in prestige of subject. It’s what you have over and above your degree that will matter![/quote]
I can only speak for finance and technology. In the former degree subject doesn’t really matter, only uni prestige at the upper echelons.
For many technical roles a maths/engineering degree isn’t required - just strong evidence of logical reasoning. A biology graduate for example really isn’t going to have an advantage over a philosophy graduate if the latter has a strong grounding in logic.

Having said that I’ve taken a look at modules and a lot of the BA philosophy courses don’t have the option to focus on logic. Which would make them generic humanities. However there are a couple of BSc courses and quite a few that allow joint honours with economics, physics etc which would be a good way to hedge.

Why do people still perpetuate the myth that degrees without an obvious career path are a bad idea? One of my siblings did sports science at a polytechnic (as it was then) and earns considerably more from his job in recruitment than I do as a doctor.
I know nothing about Philosophy degrees per se but it is clearly a well recognised subject and will open doors to many graduate jobs.
And I hear you op on not knowing if there's something that would fit but you don't know what it is. A friend's DC also did philosophy A level and is actually taking a gap year to apply for anthropology as she applied for a different course last year and then realised it wasn't what she wanted - Birmingham and Kent are apparently well regarded for anthropology?
(Not related to philosophy but one of my DC and I will be in the same boat next year when they want to apply as they know what they like but it's quite broad and it will be hard to fit it in to finding degree options that suit them).
One of my dc's friends has parents who are insisting they do a degree with an obvious career pathway - they wanted to study a humanity and are not allowed. The parents wanted them to study business, finance or economics. They have compromised on law (the child has no real interest in law - but more than finance). I know several barristers, a judge and lots of solicitors earning huge amounts in the city - not a single one has a law degree. I feel like shaking the parents (I don't know them) to tell them that a humanities degree from a top university will open plenty of doors for their DC , including law if that's what they choose. Interestingly the child has been at a genuinely top-tier public school and I'm so shocked that that advice is not being given to the parents (or maybe it is and they are refusing to listen).

@Chilldonaldchill

Why do people still perpetuate the myth that degrees without an obvious career path are a bad idea? One of my siblings did sports science at a polytechnic (as it was then) and earns considerably more from his job in recruitment than I do as a doctor. I know nothing about Philosophy degrees per se but it is clearly a well recognised subject and will open doors to many graduate jobs. And I hear you op on not knowing if there's something that would fit but you don't know what it is. A friend's DC also did philosophy A level and is actually taking a gap year to apply for anthropology as she applied for a different course last year and then realised it wasn't what she wanted - Birmingham and Kent are apparently well regarded for anthropology? (Not related to philosophy but one of my DC and I will be in the same boat next year when they want to apply as they know what they like but it's quite broad and it will be hard to fit it in to finding degree options that suit them). One of my dc's friends has parents who are insisting they do a degree with an obvious career pathway - they wanted to study a humanity and are not allowed. The parents wanted them to study business, finance or economics. They have compromised on law (the child has no real interest in law - but more than finance). I know several barristers, a judge and lots of solicitors earning huge amounts in the city - not a single one has a law degree. I feel like shaking the parents (I don't know them) to tell them that a humanities degree from a top university will open plenty of doors for their DC , including law if that's what they choose. Interestingly the child has been at a genuinely top-tier public school and I'm so shocked that that advice is not being given to the parents (or maybe it is and they are refusing to listen).

Are they Asians with family business by any chance? 😂 Sadly that is my the background of some of my family and they’re quite closed minded in terms of degree subject. Law is one of the worst degrees to study without a passion - employers prefer people from top unis in other academically strong subjects. And now that I think about it one of mh philosophy friends from uni IS a hotshot lawyer…

@tractorandheadphones not their own business no. Parents are university educated and have graduate jobs here but none of their education was in the UK and therefore I don't think they understand the nuances here at all. I understand the cultural differences to some extent but it annoys me so much that they are giving their DC advice that won't lead to the outcome they want anyway.

op, if you're still around, look up "Discover Uni". It's a gov run website offering comparable stats for all courses, including student satisfaction overall, in teaching, learning assessment etc, as well as things like earnings after the course and earnings 15 months after the course.

In terms of career outcomes; two of of my uni friends studied philosophy on the same course. One went straight into fast track graduate scheme and is hugely successful, another went into further study and eventually public sector after unemployment. I don't think it's so much the course as the person and their drive and goals.

Wow, I genuinely thought no one would post!. Give me a bit of time to read all of these properly, then I'll reply. Thanks to all though. I'll update later.

Hi OP, my dd is also applying for Philosophy. It sounds fascinating and hugely worthwhile for many reasons, but we've found it to be relatively niche and once you start looking, the options don't seem as widespread as for other subjects. The analytic/logic emphasis of some courses can be off-putting depending on your point of view. Have you seen the Kings College London course? Looks really interesting. Dd applying there and Oxford Phil/theo but hasn't decided yet on others :)

Social Anthropology at University of Manchester

Dd finished university this year having done Philosophy. It really taught her thinking out the box and reasoning arguments. Didn't surprise me that she managed to get a job really quickly. I am a maths type person but I'm really pleased she picked it as a degree as she loved it!

At one stage when we were looking at which degree (she was trying to choose between History and Philosophy), they surveyed what degrees the CEOs of the top 100 US companies had done and the top degree at that stage was Philosophy! It was a fair few years ago!

Brilliant advice - thank you to all! There are definite takeaways through so many of your posts, especially the idea of researching the courses to avoid the dry, stuffy men. Sadly DD's had quite enough of that with her History A-level...

I'm actually really chuffed to hear that so many of you see Philosophy as a degree that could serve her well. She's had people trying to put her off at school - mostly on the basis that it isn't a direct line into a job. Her school tried to talk her into Law, but she's really not interested. I'm biased (of course!), but DD's a hugely articulate, bright spark, who works hard and is easy to like - I'd bet some will think me naive, but I'm sure she'll find her way into a career - she just needs some time to work out what on earth it's going to be.

ideasinindigo, DD has looked at Kings and liked what she saw. She's not too sure about London, but only on the basis that we live in London and she wants to try moving further away! Good luck to your DD for Oxford. I hope she gets an offer.

To all those suggesting Liberal Arts or a joint honours, I'll mention that to DD, though last time we talked about starting with a broader base, she wasn't convinced. Someone told her that the Scottish Universities have a more flexible base to their degrees, so she's been thinking of Glasgow and Edinburgh as possibles too.

moofolk, I'll get her to look at that course at Manchester. Thanks for the suggestion.

@flopi77 - my dc has a place at Manchester (confirmed, they applied deferred) for Phil & Pol. All social sciences courses at Manchester allow you to choose any modules from within the faculty (Pol, Phil, Criminology, Economics, Sociology, Anthropology and poss some others I can’t remember). Personally I would choose Philosophy over Social Anthropology but obv everyone is different. Manchester website will show you all the available modules in quite a lot of depth.

Someone told her that the Scottish Universities have a more flexible base to their degrees, so she's been thinking of Glasgow and Edinburgh as possibles too.

That is my DD1s experience of St Andrews in Scotland. They have semesters and each semester you take 3 courses, usually 1-2 courses in your degree field and then 1-2 optional modules that you can pick from almost any subject. DD1 is on Ancient History degree course, but her first year she was able to study modules in Economics, Philosophy and Art History as well. She mentioned to me yesterday that in her current Ancient History- Roman Empire period class, she is only student actually studying for Ancient History degree. Her classmates are mix of English Lit, Philosophy, Classics or Medieval/Modern History students.

I highly recommend St Andrews.

*KittyMcKitty", that really good intel and sounds like a great way to go. Manchester's on her list of possibles, so I'll suggest she drills down into the options.

PlanDeRaccordement, I think DD was worried St Andrews might be a bit small and maybe too public school orientated. What's your DD's experience of the mix of people there?

Sorry, I got that a bit wrong, KittyMcKitty, see my post above in response to yours.

StrongArm, do you mind me asking where your DD studied? I'm liking the sound of you saying, 'she loved it'.

She can always go into law later if she wants to

Dd went to Birmingham and loved it. She had a place there, Durham and Bristol but preferred the course at Birmingham and it was brilliant. It's also a great campus.

I think someone else on this thread said check the course - it's v important as they are all quite different.

Thanks StrongArm, I'll tell her about your DD/ Birmingham and make sure she's drilling down into the courses at all the various Unis.

I went to Edinburgh. Quite a lot of movement within the arts/soc sci depts - I did philosophy, psychology and classical literature in first year.
Great city (I'm still very near) but very public school - in my classes there were very few state educated Scottish students, I was one of them.

To be fair I think most employers won’t look at the content of your university course if it’s humanities. They won’t care what books you have read or which ancient philosophers you have studied. What they care about is what you can do. Can you pass the selection tests and interviews? A degree is a what opens the door, but it doesn’t get you through it.

Medicine is the best overall degree for earnings longer term and significantly outperforms sports science. There are always high performers that buck the trend but generally if you study medicine you have a job and career for life. It’s not like philosophy or Anthrapology or history where you have to think of one!

PlanDeRaccordement, I think DD was worried St Andrews might be a bit small and maybe too public school orientated. What's your DD's experience of the mix of people there?

Ok, so my DD is like me French-Chinese and went through state school system here so yes we were also concerned about diversity. She did say she has met one actual live Eton boy and there are definitely students with very wealthy parents there. St Andrews however has lots of state school students. It also has a lot of international students like my DD, at least 1 in 10 students are international with most of the ones she’s met from the US and Canada.

Her friends are a mixture. There’s a Scottish state school girl from Glasgow. A boy from Canada. A girl from England, Newmarket Academy I think that is state school? Another English boy whose parents are foreign service so he’s gone to international schools all over from S. Africa to Crete etc. She’s met lots of others but don’t know their background just things like so and so is studying photography and so and so took her to the Formula One club which ended up being 70 students in a pub watching an F1 race and having fun together.

She likes how safe St Andrews is being a university town that is populated with mostly students and pensioners but also has easy access to Edinburgh. She’s gone clubbing in Edinburgh with friends a few times once the restrictions eased up and had no troubles with catching a train to Leuchars and then quick bus back to St Andrews. They have many active social, arts, and sports clubs that are restarting so she’s not bored and lonely like she was her first year with lockdown. She loves how she can just take a walk on the beach to decompress and it’s right there.

She has SEN too and they’ve been really good supporting her transition and accommodations. I was very nervous as my DS both studied here in France when she said she wanted to go to Scotland. But she’s always been my most adventurous DC. She loves it there. If you can visit, that might help your DD get a feel for it before deciding to apply.

To be fair I think most employers won’t look at the content of your university course if it’s humanities.

This is true. I agree with checking courses and modules more for the students benefit. It helps to be able to study subjects you are genuinely interested in. They’re not going to do as well on a degree course full of modules they have little to no interest in. Philosophy is very wide and has numerous applications from scientific inquiry to ethics to public administration. It also gives the student ideas as to potential career choices or perhaps academia specialisations.