Warwick Uni (less face to face than last year!)

[Daisysway]

For those students applying in 2022. Really think twice about applying to Warwick University for any of the Bioscience Courses.

My dd just going into year 2 and she's got less f2f teaching than last year! Only 50 percent of her tutorials are f2f this term, all lectures are online and she only has 6 LABS all year.

There apparent excuse is they have a larger in take this year so more tutorials.

Shocking behaviour from a top 10 University.

@Phphion

Within a university there are a limited number of rooms that can accommodate 6 or 8 or 9 people in a tutorial with social distancing. University teaching rooms were simply not built with this in mind.

That means that departments have to either:
a) teach in much smaller tutorial groups to allow them to use a wider range of rooms, but they need to have the staff numbers to teach these extra tutorial groups (plus the additional students who they have had to take due to the exams fiasco this year), or
b) use the limited number of rooms suitable for teaching their current tutorial sizes, but due to their limited availability (and possibly the need to share them with other departments and include the extra students), students use them on a rotating basis, e.g. they get a tutorial in that room every other week and on the alternate weeks they do their tutorial online while others use the room. Teaching online is still teaching.

The university has conducted a survey of every room they own or that they could gain access to. There are already plans to co-opt the conference facilities, and create teaching spaces from social spaces and, in some cases, the open-plan offices of staff who can be made to work from home.

As was the case last year, rooms that can be used will be used, the majority of teaching staff will increase their teaching hours and everyone will do their best. If students are unhappy with that, there are formal complaints procedures for them to follow both within the university and externally with the OIA.

Why do they need to accommodate social distancing? That's not happening in schools or colleges.

Why do they need to accommodate social distancing? That's not happening in schools or colleges.

Or in pubs, restaurants, theatres, sporting events etc.
It makes no sense that higher education is being treated differently to most of rest of society.

@Phphion

Within a university there are a limited number of rooms that can accommodate 6 or 8 or 9 people in a tutorial with social distancing. University teaching rooms were simply not built with this in mind.

That means that departments have to either:
a) teach in much smaller tutorial groups to allow them to use a wider range of rooms, but they need to have the staff numbers to teach these extra tutorial groups (plus the additional students who they have had to take due to the exams fiasco this year), or
b) use the limited number of rooms suitable for teaching their current tutorial sizes, but due to their limited availability (and possibly the need to share them with other departments and include the extra students), students use them on a rotating basis, e.g. they get a tutorial in that room every other week and on the alternate weeks they do their tutorial online while others use the room. Teaching online is still teaching.

The university has conducted a survey of every room they own or that they could gain access to. There are already plans to co-opt the conference facilities, and create teaching spaces from social spaces and, in some cases, the open-plan offices of staff who can be made to work from home.

As was the case last year, rooms that can be used will be used, the majority of teaching staff will increase their teaching hours and everyone will do their best. If students are unhappy with that, there are formal complaints procedures for them to follow both within the university and externally with the OIA.

@Phphion I'm confused! Is this relevant now or for last year? Surely there's no need to social distance now?

@Phphion what do you think makes Warwick different from any other uni in terms of lecture theatres and seminar rooms? Why are you talking about social distancing? Your message reads like it was written in September 2020 not September 2021. How depressing. Seems that Warwick would prefer to wheel out any old excuse rather than provide their students with the face to face teaching so many other universities are providing.

I think a lot of HEAs are erring on the side of caution. Our local uni is having to create two timetables- a normal one (no SD, no bubbles, limits on mixing etc) and a covid secure one with measures in place in case it needs to be implemented. The time it takes to do this as well as the admin for every single academic is huge. I appreciate as a parent you want your kids to have the ‘experience’ especially as they are racking up debt but most places are trying their best. Lecturer jobs aren’t particularly well paid and most would prefer to teach face to face if possible.

I must gently protest to the poster who said Warwick has nothing to offer except quality of teaching! The centre is beautiful with many ancient buildings and it’s an hour from Oxford (less by train).

(Totally understand why people are hacked off about the lack of lab time)

Im at Sheffield uni doing eng and phil. All f2f this year. According to a lecturer the government gave unis 3 sets of guidance re f2f teaching. 2m, 1m and no restrictions. There has been a mad scramble to redo timetables to allow f2f as opposed to blended learning. Mine still isn't complete and we start next week.

Suspect those still restricting f2f didn't bother with the scramble.

@Phyllis321 but Warwick University is not in Warwick , it’s actually nearer to Coventry . Students tend to live in Leamington Spa

But Warwick uni is mostly in Coventry so that puts a different slant on it 😂 quite a nice part of Coventry from what I can remember about my odd visits but still.

Oh sorry - didn’t realise!

@Phyllis321. The university is in Canley. Yes Warwick is lovely and so is Leamington but
Warwick is 1hr away by bus and Leamington 30 mins. Coventry has its own uniqueness too... but if you discount the level of education I'm sure most students would opt to go to a more vibrant city.

My dds final choice was Bham or Warwick she chose Warwick because it just had the edge and she'd also done a lab day in Yr12. She has been going over to Bham alot so in hindsight it was probably a better option than Warwick and I think this is what students should really bare in mind when virtually all of their course is online... They need nice (safe) places (walkable) where they can grab a coffee or a bite to eat to have a break away from the computer screens (thankfully my dd has taken her car with her for second year). Dds course typically has 8 to 12 lectures a week (so lots of time sitting in front of a screen). She has not met anyone doing the same course due to the nature of the tutorials eg. all life sciences tutorials have a mixture of students doing different courses. I know it does not sound a lot but having 2hrs a week f2f with your tutorial group really was something to look forward too when you have spent the rest of the week looking at a screen.

Anyway I'm going to raise an issue with the RSB (accreditation body of the course). I honestly don't think the course meets student needs in its present format.

@CarryOnNurse20

I think a lot of HEAs are erring on the side of caution. Our local uni is having to create two timetables- a normal one (no SD, no bubbles, limits on mixing etc) and a covid secure one with measures in place in case it needs to be implemented. The time it takes to do this as well as the admin for every single academic is huge. I appreciate as a parent you want your kids to have the ‘experience’ especially as they are racking up debt but most places are trying their best. Lecturer jobs aren’t particularly well paid and most would prefer to teach face to face if possible.

I think like with all things it depends on the individual. I know quite a few lecturers who prefer lecturing online as it saves them commuting to the uni town, arranging so much childcare etc - they don’t all live nearby of course.

[quote Daisysway]@Phyllis321. The university is in Canley. Yes Warwick is lovely and so is Leamington but
Warwick is 1hr away by bus and Leamington 30 mins. Coventry has its own uniqueness too... but if you discount the level of education I'm sure most students would opt to go to a more vibrant city.

My dds final choice was Bham or Warwick she chose Warwick because it just had the edge and she'd also done a lab day in Yr12. She has been going over to Bham alot so in hindsight it was probably a better option than Warwick and I think this is what students should really bare in mind when virtually all of their course is online... They need nice (safe) places (walkable) where they can grab a coffee or a bite to eat to have a break away from the computer screens (thankfully my dd has taken her car with her for second year). Dds course typically has 8 to 12 lectures a week (so lots of time sitting in front of a screen). She has not met anyone doing the same course due to the nature of the tutorials eg. all life sciences tutorials have a mixture of students doing different courses. I know it does not sound a lot but having 2hrs a week f2f with your tutorial group really was something to look forward too when you have spent the rest of the week looking at a screen.

Anyway I'm going to raise an issue with the RSB (accreditation body of the course). I honestly don't think the course meets student needs in its present format.[/quote]
Good plan. It really doesn’t prepare them for careers doing labs online

Have posted on another thread about this, but DS1 is at Edinburgh also doing biosciences, 2nd year entry, and it's also looking like no more than 1 or 2 hours F2F teaching per fortnight - and maybe not even that much. Lectures online are one thing - though this is clearly just as much due to overcrowding/overenrollment as to Covid - but on top of that, tutor meeting (1 to 1) was held online, first tutorial group meeting with professor and 5 other students also held online, and no indication that it will ever be held face to face despite indicating on timetables that it would be in-person. Number of labs over the course of the term is very limited (as in, 2 labs the whole term), as they have so many kids to fit in - and I would frankly not be surprised if those magically disappear or go online, as well, given what we've seen so far.

He's making the best of it, but it's a disgraceful effort on the part of the uni - there's no excuse whatsoever for not even holding tutorial and small group meetings face to face, and it's not what was promised. We definitely would recommend avoiding this university - clearly they do not care how they treat their students, nor have they been honest about the provision. In contrast, people we know who teach elsewhere have been given the clear message from department heads and university management that they need to return to F2F teaching unless there's a very good (medical) reason not to.

I don't understand why Edinburgh students and parent aren't up in arms about it - perhaps the lack of organisation and transparency is making it difficult to know what's actually happening in a broader sense, and who to complain to. It's beyond understanding how this is allowed when all other parts of society and business are open again - but there just seems to be no accountability.

@MizZan I suspect more people will be coming on to complain about f2f tutorials being online . I know if several universities who are counting live online tutorials as f2f , after all it doesn’t say physically face to face and they were face to face albeit online .

It is completely unacceptable to offer placed to people that you do not have room to teach, they need to hire more rooms/portakabins etc. More worrying is the lack of staff to teach them

I was listening to an interview with Michelle Donelan (the Universities Minister) and she was very clear that although universities are independent, the government has been very clear that the majority of teaching should be face to face and that this will be monitored by the Office for Students.
Perhaps one or both of these would be a good place to approach?

You are right about staffing @Peaseblossum22 my uni has cut staff to the bone - we had a year long recruitment freeze and nobody that left has been replaced. Quite a few have taken early retirement. Everyone I work with is on the edge to be honest, trying to bring back all our services and teaching f2f but with at least half the number of staff we need to properly deliver it. If any of my team gets Covid we'll be screwed.

@phphion... Perhaps Warwick need to take a look at their neighbours (Bham). Well done Birmingham for going the extra mile.. Sadly Warwick you need to learn to offer your students the education they are paying for!

I suspect more to do with the top universities having to take on much higher number of students for the past 2 years, due to the inflated A level grades. Can't just magic labs out of nowhere to accommodate them. We have already seem in the news pressure on trying to accommodate them all in halls.
At least the past 2 years cohort have gained from higher A levels and more going to the prestigious universities than previous and possible future years. Less f2f may be the price some students have to pay.

I was talking to a lecturer a couple of weeks ago (not Warwick, but top ranking University, and similar subject). They told me the intake of 400 last year is 500 this year. It really isn't easy to squeeze an extra 100 students in to many rooms.
The idea that there are "rooms elsewhere" for all the spare Bioscience students, seems to forget that there will also be extra students across ALL subjects.

Why has a uni over offered by that much on ONE course? They knew a levels would be disrupted again.

I doubt whether Life Sciences took at extra 100 students this year but will do a Foi request. I haven't heard of any accommodation issues on campus so they look to have managed overall numbers OK.

Life Sciences is on its own site on campus and there is also a brand new complex built next door which I assume would have space.

*They told me the intake of 400 last year is 500 this year. It really isn't easy to squeeze an extra 100 students in to many rooms.
The idea that there are "rooms elsewhere" for all the spare Bioscience students, seems to forget that there will also be extra students across ALL subjects. *

And the problem is that this lack of space will follow the students through their whole time at university. Unless there's a high drop out rate this large cohort will be there for 3 years!
And it was totally foreseeable that this would be an issue after last years A level results🤷🏼‍♀️

No idea @Newgirls. My friend only has to do the preparation and delivery of the modules, seminars, tutorials, and of course marking and student support.
The admissions team - obviously directed from the VC down (I'm not blaming anyone working in admissions either) - don't ask them for their input.

I would guess the biggest issue is increased intake and lack of room space. The problem is that having made an offer, the university is bound to honour it (hence those offers of money to postpone or go elsewhere).
At some unis (often with listed buildings) there are major issues with getting in adequate ventilation which put limits on the number of students in rooms too.
As a lecturer, I can tell you we have no say at all though!

I have also heard that some courses in our faculty are oversubscribed by about 100

I have no idea how that side of things works but I imagine there was a lot of uncertainty about how many offers would actually be accepted due to Brexit realities kicking in (student visas) and Covid (how many people did we see on here saying their DC wouldn't start uni as long as things were online?)

Perhaps some courses underestimated how many students would actually come