One hour a fortnight F2F for £9k

[GaribaldiGirl]

My daughter did the first year of her degree from home. Going into the second year all students were told they were ‘expected to be in Edinburgh’ from September. So we’ve paid a deposit on her flat and she went off this weekend, so excited to be finally going.
Today she discovered that as well as her lectures all being online, she has just one hour of face to face contact a fortnight. And all the Welcome Week stuff she was excited about has limited numbers and needs to be prebooked and, yes you’ve guessed it, it’s all full.
It’s so utterly rubbish I despair. Surely this isn’t right?!
Are other universities back to normal?

[quote mumsneedwine]@Snowdrop30 but there is no 1m rule in schools in Scotland ? Before someone jumps on me, I know schools are not Unis. But large gathering of people in close contact transmit the same (well, less if vaccinated, like Uni students).
I know it's not staff's fault. Just done v v strange decisions being made for poor Uni students. [/quote]
It’s the disparity between schools and unis that seems so odd. And yes it is the gov decision but one supported by university teaching unions.

Hi does anybody know what the score is for Cardiff uni and specifically Computer Dept? Online or F2F classes this year?

@NadiSel I was at a virtual open day for Cardiff yesterday. Different subject (earth sciences). They distinguished between September and the next semester starting in Jan.
for September, they said that they are still operating on a 75% capacity for lecture theatres so for lectures where the cohort is bigger than can fit in that reduced capacity, lectures will remain online. They said that generally means that 1st years with shared core modules are online, but years above with smaller optional modules will be face to face. Seminars are face to face for all though.
From Jan they are hoping to go pretty much back to normal, and will drop the 75% capacity rule (govt guidance otherwise permitting). They did say that they can’t guarantee absolute normality because the timetablibg across uni was done in May/June assuming restrictions then in force and it is difficult to unpick, but they seem really to be trying.

This article in the times says only Sheffield Southampton and Sussex are back to full F2F

What a fantastic vibe across Cardiff uni yesterday. The uni have put so much effort into receiving the students. The union was awash with helpers. The tours were a fantastic idea. I hope the students are now able to enjoy what uni should be - a fun and exciting time to learn, meet people and experience a wonderful city.

My sons' place has put out an email about sickness which says if a lecturer is off sick then they will try to find another one in their place. If they cannot then you can go to a different group's same session and that those with 9am lectures may not be informed in time. My sons spend £8 each on travel to a 9am lecture so as they leave before 8am I presume they would arrive and only then be told someone was sick on the day and I expect no refund would be offered for rail fare. Hopefully the lecturers are robust.

(They are back fully face to face - law post grad and as they started in early Sept will have had quite a lot of their 10 hours a week face to face before any Autumn colds and flu start up)

@NadiSel

What a fantastic vibe across Cardiff uni yesterday. The uni have put so much effort into receiving the students. The union was awash with helpers. The tours were a fantastic idea. I hope the students are now able to enjoy what uni should be - a fun and exciting time to learn, meet people and experience a wonderful city.

This is good to read

www.itv.com/news/anglia/2021-09-23/a-fresh-start-for-new-uni-students-the-bid-to-get-back-to-learning-as-normal

We're doing the full face to face timetable of teaching. Students will have a fantastic on campus experience. We are retaining the best of online provision to supplement - but make no mistake we're all about the campus, we're all about being together, we're all about the community and that means face to face teaching.
(Prof David Richardson Vice-Chancellor, UEA)

DS2 has just started at UEA, so this is encouraging.

@GaribaldiGirl, any more news on whether your DD will get more F2F teaching at Edinburgh? DS1 has just had his first week with none at all - even small group workshop which was supposed to be in person, was held online. There seems to be no intention to do any F2F despite what it says on the module info and timetable. He may have a lab next week. So incredibly disappointed for him and for all of them at Edinburgh. Yes the social side seems more open than was the case last year - which is good of course - but then why on earth are they not teaching the students in person?

@MizZan English department still only offering one hour F2F a fortnight. However she has picked a modern language as a minor option this term and that has a spectacular one hour F2F a week.
On the plus side she is actually having a nice time as she is in a flat with a group who seem to get on and they are out and about socialising. So a million times better than last year cooped up in a cell at Pollock Halls.
The whole thing still makes me cross though.

Hehehe drama and mutiny at the moment in Halls at the moment as the resident first years have been told that the loo roll that was so amply stocked in their shared toilets at the start of term, only a week ago, will need to be replenished at their own expense. The occupants are incensed and thinking of starting a student revolt!

What is the reasoning for this when the majority of the UK are back to normal, certainly schools and other educational settings?

Is there a genuine ongoing risk? That will not be diminished any further given the success of the vaccination rollout and ongoing testing. When is the point at which they allow students to really get their money's worth?

Sounds like a rip off and I don't know how they are justifying it and getting away with it. Do students not have a voice in this?

I am a lecturer in a RG university. We are all back face to face, no social distancing in rooms, although masks are mandated for staff and students. We have kept some recorded lecture materials because they are actually a good way of delivering some content, and we're using campus time for smaller group teaching mostly. But we're very definitely face to face. Students can come to our offices or call us on Teams. Been teaching a week. Lots of them are sick already (not necessarily covid!) - this is typical Freshers Flu, but is fairly disconcerting as they cough constantly...

If your child is getting no face to face at all then that is truly unfair and they should complain. I taught on Zoom last year and it went very well in fact - used a lot of break out rooms and worked on getting students confident to speak in the main room- but it isn't the same. I think some zoom would be fine, and I do think it works in the strictest educational terms, but jt never fully replaces the crucial human and social aspect of popping for a coffee with someone after a lecture or sitting next to someone who you immediately click with. And students do need the whole experience to feel connected and human; that's what they come to university for, not just the academic side.

Well said salted. My twins are very lucky to have their 10 hours face to face a week (after 100% online last year when they did not meet one single other person on their courses, not once other than a school friend who lives near our house). They are having a telephone call (not zoom) for a tutor meeting - one had his yesterday but that was fine. They don't want to have to spend an hour getting into London just to chat to a tutor for 15 mins about how they are getting on so they had no problems with that at all and they were discussing how for that one it was better by telephone as it is a one off.

I don't think it is fair particularly on freshers to get just about nothing face to face as you pay all that rent etc not just to socialise but meet people on your course etc. Eg when my son sgtarted geography BSc at Bristol before covid for 2 nights before the start of the term the whole cohort of geography went to the country on a field trip by coach so everyone could get to know people. That kind of thing really helped the geography people get to know each other and make friends on the course. Even just meeting people before and after lectures is nice for students and part of the experience.

DS1 at Edinburgh says the uni have told them that no face to face is due to Scottish govt regulations. That is obviously untrue as there is no Scottish govt regulation saying you cannot get people together for a lab or a small group tutorial, it feels like the uni is taking advantage of some ambiguity in the regulations to limit face to face teaching as much as possible. Why this is allowed when students can freely go clubbing with no vaccinations or masks or distancing, is beyond me - clearly the government priority is not on education.

I couldn't agree more that no or very limited F2F is not fair on students at all, especially new entrants, but many are believing what the university is telling them about being 'prevented' from offering it, or simply don't want to rock the boat/risk being perceived as a troublemaker or impacting their grades. Update from Edinburgh is 50 minutes face to face tutorial this week, and next week one in-person lab but no face to face teaching other than that. Everything else on zoom or pre-recorded. He has not met anyone on his course. It is nothing like a normal uni experience. The saddest thing is I can't see why or when the uni would go back to normal services - I can't imagine anything will change this year, there's no way Covid rates will decline with no more measures in place, the university is over-enrolled which also won't change, and student vaccination rates are already reasonably high and masks required indoors. What more can they do? And why is it somehow not safe to teach in person in a uni but a school is fine?

You're right @MizZan the university is hiding behind Gov regulations.
All Scottish universities have 1m distancing, however some are doing a better job than others!
I have a DC at another university who has 2 labs a week in person.

However the students in Scotland should all be contacting their MSPs to protest about universities (and colleges) being treated differently to the rest of society.

It seems to me its probably a case of the universities over subscribing and therefore pushed for lecture rooms that are large enough. The universities need to be more inventive - have 2 'sittings'.

Come on universities give the students their money's worth and proper teaching rather than the bare minimum that you think you can get away with.

My dc is also at Edinburgh Uni. My understanding is that all lectures over 50 pupils are deemed unsafe and are therefore online instead. But I agree that the idea of two sittings would be a great idea!

Perhaps it's because Scottish Universities are free that the 'value for money' is less relevant to them than English Unis?

@Blubells Edinburgh university takes a large percentage of non-Scottish students who are paying fees.
There's large numbers from England and international (USA and China in particular) so you would think they would have an eye to making sure they don't vote with their feet!

In England the 1m rule has NEVER been law and you have always been perfectly free to ignore it.

Scotland is becoming a bit like a Canada and even things like right to roam over much private land, higher income tax is all very different from England. For those considering it for university in future it is something to consider.

@Xenia the current administration goes out of their way to be as different to England as possible

Well the Unis are shooting themselves in the foot because the word will get round to this and next year’s applicants. Part of the appeal was to break away from home and go to a university. Why bother if it’s online.

I think if this goes on then universities will become online courses by default, with only those courses requiring clinical or practical work being residential. Even then I would imagine that that will be condensed into a summer school type arrangement where the term is mostly online and then come in for 2 weeks of practicals.

This sort of arrangement would be very lucrative for the universities as they will be able to sell their course all over the world. But disastrous for the towns and cities that the universities are situated in as they will lose all the revenue from the student communities and to the students themselves who will miss that opportunity to live and study abroad and meet people.

On the 'two sittings' front, wasn't it Durham that did this a few years back, for Law, with one group starting at 8am?

DD is currently on her yearvaboad at a university in the South of France and on one day has a two-hour lecture starting at 8am and another finishing at 8pm - with most of the hours inbetween filled as well for a couple of weeks. (At least she has discovered somewhere to get coffee and croissants on her way in - her preference would be for a bagel, but the local ones are awful, apparently. But I digress).