DD dropping out and reapplying to Cambridge - best to finish the full year?

[LitCrit]

Hi all - hope someone can help.

2 of DD's PGs were downgraded last year - we appealed, and won both, but alas too late for her to take her first choice place at UCL - she was desperate not to be hanging around for a year so took her insurance place at another London uni.

At the same time she changed her course from Politics to Eng/History. She now feels that she
a. should have done English only, and
b. that she should have held on and waited for UCL. She feels it is more prestigious and that the academic standards of her peers will be higher. She's aware this sounds snooty but she's trying to be realistic - she's very bright and has always been a couple of years ahead in terms of her reading and critical thinking, maybe more.

A complicating factor is that she had also applied for Cambridge, but didn't get an offer. She now feels that she was applying for the wrong course - she should have been applying for English (got A*) and not Politics, about which she has quite rigid Strong Views which I don't think will have made her seem very open and/or intellectually curious. Her teachers felt she had a very strong chance for English, less so for Pol - she wouldn't listen then but now agrees. She is much more open and free-thinking when in comes to literary theory than she is in relation to political ideas.

She is considering re-applying for English at Cambs, and for a few other RGs - Kings, UCL, Manchester.

If she drops out of her London U now she will save a full term's fees and will feel much better about the lost money. But would it be frowned upon by any of her preferred unis for next year to have left before completing the full first year?

And does anyone have any advice about re-applying to Cambridge for English after having not got an offer last year in a different subject? Would one be at a disadvantage? Will interview notes from last time be looked at again?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Hi Do you mean reapply for Sept 2022 as it’s too late to apply for 2021 now, unless courses are still open/available in Clearing. Also I’d recommend emailing the University & asking. I work in one of the RGs mentioned & we’d be looking for a 2:1 this year or a good reason why not.
If she’s undergrad now, I don’t know how she’d save a whole terms fees as there are only a couple of weeks of term left & most 1st years would be doing exams now.

I agree with Shinyflowers - I don’t think she’ll save any money if she drops out now, I think at this point there would be no refund for this year.

If she finishes this year, she may be able to transfer onto another course at a different university rather than starting from scratch and carry over some credits and save herself from repeating a year. Even if she can’t do that, it will definitely look better to complete the year rather than drop out, unless she is likely to do very badly in her exams.

Even for transfer, you’d usually need to apply through UCAS by the normal deadline. She still may be able to apply depending, she definitely needs to contact the universities concerned. We wouldn’t accept a transfer unless it was the same course, so she couldn’t change courses and transfer into 2nd year. She really needs to check this out ASAP if she is thinking of Sept 21. English isn’t usually a high demand course, so she may have some options.

Hi and thanks so much for responses.

She's not thinking of this year - so Sept 2022. I will double check but she certainly has something due in the next 2 weeks - perhaps it is halls?

@Shinyflowers - gosh, do you mean that, in order to offer a place in the first year of a new course at a new uni, you would be making an offer based on the mark for the first year of the old uni, rather than on her (already received) A* A A A-level grades through UCAS?
She is on course to get a First for this year - no exams, but she still has some work to complete which I know she would rather not if it makes no odds to the new university (she has ADHD so is already walking uphill, as it were).

Sorry by 'halls' I mean 'accommodation fees'.

She's insisted on doing all the finance stuff herself so I'm a bit vague, apols.

I'm not sure A A A is enough for Cambridge English. Nothing to lose by naming it on a reapplication if* she decides to drop out, but there is also the assessment and interview to pass. I think for many subjects one London uni is much like another. If it is UCL vs Kings for example there is little point in swapping in terms of content or prestige. Could she change course where she is ?

Bold fail! ... A* AA is enough...

I'm involved in Oxbridge English though not an Admissions Tutor. Your DD should finish the year (to demonstrate intellectual commitment & staying-power), and have a sensible plan for 2020-21. AAA on PGs isn't that* competitive, but a lot depends on the quality of the work - most colleges will ask for marked essays to be submitted.

Would she be old enough to consider a mature college, eg Hughes Hall / St Edmunds / Wolfson (or Lucy Cavendish, just about)? If she'll be over 21 in Oct 2022 that would give her a stronger chance of an offer. Very best of luck to her.

What happens if she doesn’t get a place at Cambridge, or anywhere else? What is she planning to do for a whole year before she starts again? This is a VERY high risk strategy. There’s a chance she might be considered a flake with all the changing of minds etc. Finding a job in the interim year will be more difficult than usual post Covid.

Is there no value in carrying on where she is and then considering her postgrad options at Cambridge/UCL etc?

Oh - and on whether reapplying for a different subject will put her at a disadvantage, I'm pretty sure the interviewers will not have that information. Nor will they have any interview notes.

@pearlsthatwerent Thanks for the input on her grades - that's very helpful. Her A* was in English, and this year she's received two 80 marks for English (She's doing English/History joint hons currently) and was told that one of these essays was of publishable quality/highest mark ever given by that tutor. Would that make any difference to her Cambridge chances do you think? I don't think she has any of her A-level English essays any more - we had a huge clear out when she seemed to have settled at the other London uni.

One of the mature colleges for the following year is definitely a second option - we live in London and if she doesn't have any luck getting into Cambridge next year she could try at a mature college the following year. We're in London and I think she could find some sort of cafe / bar /hospital job, and between that and reading around the subject and her music / band interests I think she could keep busy

@VanCleefArpels she thinks that she'll get an offer at one of the other ones with the grades she got - do you think she's mistaken? Eek.

Both her father and I have had a couple of different creative-type careers and we're not really 'professional career path' kind of family, so although I think you're right about high risk if one's aiming for the City or a profession, I feel hopeful that this stuff is less important if you're not really a milk-round type?

But you make a very good point about carrying on and postgrad - this is something she's considered carefully, but she's just really meh about the cohort and the amount of teaching where she is. I really do think she's tried to love it but her spirits have really sunk, even though she's on course for a First this year. I've been worried about her mental health so I've accepted that I'm probably going to have to be a bit less 'chin up and get on with it' than i might otherwise have been.

@pearlsthatwerent

Oh - and on whether reapplying for a different subject will put her at a disadvantage, I'm pretty sure the interviewers will not have that information. Nor will they have any interview notes.

I think under gdpr they should have destroyed notes from unsuccessful candidates. However iirc the supplementary forms ask about any previous applications and UCAS may require her to list the course she withdraws from. Also bear in mind she has already used a year of SFA funding. She would need to have solid plans for the gap year for her personal statement and agree options for this may be more limited and she would need to be available for interviews etc.

I have no insight into whether her grades will he enough. However she will be in competition with a whole new cohort, possibly benefitting from grade inflation due to no exams. Why does she think the cohort she might end up with abs/or the type and amount of teaching will be any better anywhere rise: English is notoriously a fairly solo study type of course anywhere. There’s no guarantee that her new course mates will be any more stimulating - it’s just a random collection of kids and of course if she starts again she will be older and not necessarily want to do the same things as them.

It’s obvious to me that you and she need to seriously consider the implications of things not happening to plan. Will she even want to go back to study after a year working?

Accommodation fees may be due in two weeks but normally you sign a contract for a year and have to pay in full even if you leave.

If she finishes the year she’d normally gain a post grad certificate which could be worth it.

@LIZS it's not UCL vs Kings unfortunately, it's one of the newer ones vs Kings or UCL. Sorry to be oblique, trying to be vaguely careful of her privacy!
There are no transfers available at either Kings or UCL (even if they would take her onto their single hons English course from her current double hons English / History course).

Do you feel quite strongly that A*A A wouldn't be enough for Cambridge English? Hmm. So much to think about.

Sorry loads of typos but hopefully you get the drift!

Sorry not a post grad certificate, higher education certificate or something

Do you feel quite strongly that AA A wouldn't be enough for Cambridge English? Hmm. So much to think about.*

Consider this another way. What has changed in her suitability / expertise / commitment since the last (failed) application to make her stand out from other applicants with the same grades?

@CovidCorvid hmm yes that does make sense about the contract. Will double check. And also about certificate - thanks.

@VanCleefArpels I think the level of one's fellow students is quite important in seminars which is where a lot of the open thinking goes on. I did English myself and I do understand what he means. It's possible though that others will catch up next year.

@VanCleefArpels - well, I suppose the subject is what's changed. She applied, against the nudges of teachers who said she was very very strong for English and tried to get her to reconsider, for Politics and History at one of the most prestigious colleges. Her own political ideology I'm sure dominated that interview! This won't be the case with English, I wouldn't have thought, and since then she has the very high marks she can show for her university essays, and all the reading/thinking she's done this year? But I'm very willing to be wrong - do you not agree?

I wouldn't rule out Cambridge with AAA, it will depend also on what the school was like and so on. English at UCL is very different from KCL, though, honestly I think it's unlikely that the same student would really enjoy / flourish in both. UCL English is a very traditional course, they still interview applicants and they still have 1:1 tutorials, plus big compulsory courses (with exams) in Chaucer and Shakespeare; some compulsory Old and Middle English in year 1 etc. Also very end-weighted in terms of assessments (most of degree determined by final exams). I think she needs to do a bit more research. I don't think whether or not she finishes this year will make a huge* difference honestly as she won't be a transfer student. I've been an admissions tutor and this sort of background wouldn't put me off, it's not that uncommon and taking a year out and reapplying at least shows real commitment to her preferred course.

Re the “level” of students - the pint I was trying to make is that a) there may be students who have been over graded and b) they may be the most intellectual but actually be quite unpleasant. Equally they could end up being lifelong friends/spouses etc! There’s no guarantee and to make a change based on that aspect is very high risk in my view

She should be able to check the actual grades of those admitted to Cambridge, by subject/college. English is a very competitive subject though. Did she get any feedback about her previous application?

I'm not sure this last year is a fair gauge of her fellow students academic level or intellectual motivation. With those grades presumably she did not pitch up at a uni with significantly lower entry grades.

.Yes you're right @VanCleefArpels - I think she also feels that it's less prestigious degree as well, and that she's also out of step with the other students in terms of her other interests as well (music, art, 'cool' stuff). It's quite a science-heavy place.
It's the combination of all these things, plus the residual bitterness about the A-level debacle and being downgraded, that adds up to wanting to move. I do understand her position, as much as I wish it weren't the case.

Thanks so much to everyone who's replied, you really are helping to clarify things in my mind and to formulate quesstions for DD that I haven't yet asked.

@LIZS "With those grades presumably she did not pitch up at a uni with significantly lower entry grades."
Unfortunately yes - I think BBB was the entry grade for the new place.

@kalidasa Thanks so much - this is very helpful.