DD dropping out and reapplying to Cambridge - best to finish the full year?

[LitCrit]

Hi all - hope someone can help.

2 of DD's PGs were downgraded last year - we appealed, and won both, but alas too late for her to take her first choice place at UCL - she was desperate not to be hanging around for a year so took her insurance place at another London uni.

At the same time she changed her course from Politics to Eng/History. She now feels that she
a. should have done English only, and
b. that she should have held on and waited for UCL. She feels it is more prestigious and that the academic standards of her peers will be higher. She's aware this sounds snooty but she's trying to be realistic - she's very bright and has always been a couple of years ahead in terms of her reading and critical thinking, maybe more.

A complicating factor is that she had also applied for Cambridge, but didn't get an offer. She now feels that she was applying for the wrong course - she should have been applying for English (got A*) and not Politics, about which she has quite rigid Strong Views which I don't think will have made her seem very open and/or intellectually curious. Her teachers felt she had a very strong chance for English, less so for Pol - she wouldn't listen then but now agrees. She is much more open and free-thinking when in comes to literary theory than she is in relation to political ideas.

She is considering re-applying for English at Cambs, and for a few other RGs - Kings, UCL, Manchester.

If she drops out of her London U now she will save a full term's fees and will feel much better about the lost money. But would it be frowned upon by any of her preferred unis for next year to have left before completing the full first year?

And does anyone have any advice about re-applying to Cambridge for English after having not got an offer last year in a different subject? Would one be at a disadvantage? Will interview notes from last time be looked at again?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Oh and to answer your other questions:--

No, interview notes from the previous application will not be looked at again. The interviewers will not automatically be told that she is a reapplicant, and in any case it will not count against her. (Cambridge colleges are used to reapplicants; they will be more interested to know the reason for the subject change, and it will help your DD to be able to say clearly why she now finds she applied for and is doing the wrong subject and this is the reason why she's reapplying).

Cambridge will not care if she drops out now or completes the full year elsewhere - that makes no difference to us, though I can't speak for other universities. On a purely practical basis, though, I might advise her to complete the first year in case (a) some courses allow transfers in; and (b) in case she needs in the end to go back or switch course within her current institution - much easier if a year's assessment has been completed.

If you have any other questions I can try to answer them as far as I can!

Oh gosh @alirudniamw that's so helpful. Can I have a think about questions - just tied up with other child! But one awful thing occurs to me, which is that we've got rid of all her schoolwork ! She was very determined to make a good fist of things and I thought that was that. God, I am kicking myself. Is there anything to be done?
There is a vague possibility that one of the teachers still has an essay as she used it as an example essay for the class. But I think it's a slim chance. ARGH.

If you don’t have any school work then I’d ask the college’s admissions office if she could submit a different writing sample - perhaps under the direction of a former teacher who could set her a topic to write on and then confirm it was written for the purpose? If she could get hold of at least one piece a teacher might have, all the better. (In submitting the essays we normally ask for them to be marked A-level work and verified and signed off by the school with the school stamp.) But it’s a good idea to do it in conjunction with, or at least with the knowledge of, the former school/the relevant sixth form or subject teacher of possible, so that you can ask them to give a covering note just explaining what the work is.

Normally in these circumstances the school are willing to help, but we’re aware that some schools or VI colleges are big and anonymous or not that helpful. So in extremis she could submit work from another subject (ie from her current degree work), if she hasn’t got any other option or the school aren’t useful. She’ll need to sit the ELAT test anyway, so there will be some evidence of her subject writing.

In any case, she should definitely explain the situation to the college admissions office and see what they, and the English Directors of Studies, advise. Normally every effort is made to be flexible if she can’t get hold of her old coursework - she won’t be disadvantaged by not having it though it would help to have it IYSWIM.

It would be good to be in contact with the school too about even a little bit of preparation for the ELAT test (which is usually sat at a school site). If she feels rusty in unseen analysis since her A-level, they might suggest she do a couple of practice runs using old papers (from the ELAT website).

I’d also say - when we see applicants in this position (as with all post-A applicants), we also really want to see some evidence of what they have been reading and interested in since finishing their A-levels. Especially in the case of someone who wants to restart again in English because they feel they made the wrong subject choice. We’d want to see some evidence of what they had been reading and thinking about in their spare time/of their own interests - exactly why they feel a different subject is now right for them. It wouldn’t quite make sense to interviewers for someone to say they now realise they are desperate to read English, if they aren’t continuing to read and think about literary texts in their spare time.

These don’t have to be weighty canonical texts or classics by any means, they could be recent novels or contemporary poetry or the Booker shortlist or whatever - but your DD should definitely have recent literary reading or interests that she is enthusiastic about. She’ll almost definitely be asked at interview what her recent reading has been, and why this makes her think she’d enjoy an English degree.

Sorry for any typos, trying to get DC to sleep!

Oh thank God for that. Thank you so much. We will start the ball rolling on Monday. You're very kind - I might come back with other questions if that's ok but i will try not to overload you!

I second what pp says - don't panic about lost schoolwork too much. Mature / unconventional applicants are often in this position and there are several ways round it, but advice to contact admissions tutor at relevant college/s now is important. (I have done Ox and Cam admissions in the past though not at either atm.)

I also agree with point above that masters experience of an institution is v different from BA. Can be better or worse but (honestly) mostly inferior in the institutions you are thinking about, from my experience (both teaching and being taught).

@alirudniamw and @kalidasa - thanks so much. One thing has occurred to me - although I do understand that submitting marked year 1 Uni work would spoil the level playing field, is there any way to let the college know about this work and that it has been good? Is it something to put into the personal statement for example, or is that basically also not the done thing? Or is it something to try and mention at interview if she gets one - that they've said it's publishable?

What strikes me here is that even if she got Cambridge she couldn't go until 2022 and would "waste" two years. Whereas if she finishes her degree she can go there only one year later for a post-grad.

I think I would firmly advise staying put. Unless she's at a London university college and can move to a different (and better) London university college on a transfer. I have no idea if that is possible.

But I do understand why she feels resentful about losing her UCL place. That said, they obviously weren't helpful and didn't wait for the appeal or offer her a deferred place when she got the grades after all like other universities did, so why would she want to go there?

She couldn't take the risk of deferring and then finding that the appeal had not been successful @looptheloopinahulahoop. It was all very unfair - not UCL's fault really though.

As PPs have mentioned, a postgrad is a different experience to undergrad, and the bottom line is, despite the painful sunk cost, she really doesn't want to spend another £40K (fees + living) on 2 years at an institution she's just not enjoying either intellectually or socially. I wish it weren't so but here we are..

Some further things to bear in mind: as PP have said, there is v little contact time in a Cambridge English degree. Most is self-directed study. Lectures are across the university, not the faculty, and where there is small group tuition this is as likely to be with students from other colleges as her own college.
It would be worth her looking at the syllabus for Part I and II to make sure it's actually what she wants to do.
She will need to continue to read!

I know you’ve said she’d be happy with her other uni choices but it reads to me as if you and she think she’ll get in to Cambridge and are basing this plan on that. Youve assumed she only didn’t get an offer for her original choice because of her particular political views - it might be nothing to do with that. They obviously had stronger applicants. Of course her A level results are excellent, but they’re the bare minimum for Cambridge. Did she only do 3 A levels or did she do any extended projects?

It also doesn’t seem clear from your posts that she really has a passion for English - she rejected advice to study it in the first place, and on her current course it’s only part of joint honours. Like a pp has said, is she just going for that because of the A* on the basis that’s a ticket in to Cambridge? It just seems quite high stakes to take 2 years out for something that might not happen.

It’s no surprise that she’s not content wheee she is - the pandemic has ruined this year for all students. I’d probably encourage her to make the best of where she is or try to transfer to another uni into the right year instead.

If she had deferred and maybe planned to resit if the grades didn’t improve on appeal she would have only lost one year and stood a much better chance of going somewhere she was happy with. The mistake here was being rushed into a decision without all the information which she now regrets. I would always advise taking a year after A levels rather than going somewhere you don’t really want to and thinking hard about your options. A year at that stage is nothing, but she will be three years older than a lot of her peers when she restarts her degree. People change a lot in that time and she may find that she has as little in common with them as she does with the current bunch. She will also be starting an undergrad at the same time as many of her cohort will be beginning their masters. I would try as a late applicant or transfer this year for English and see what is out there. She can always sit it out if nothing comes up. Holding out for Cambridge is very risky. It may pay off but only around 1/4 of students with A*AA get in and that includes less popular courses than English.

I’d also add that English at Cambridge is extremely competitive- much more so than SPS (or whatever the politics course is called now). And the prestige of the college she originally applied to is a bit of a red herring too - if she’d been good enough but they were oversubscribed she’d have been pooled, and the less “prestigious” colleges are still very popular with people who think that will give them a better chance.

Thank for all these points - they are very good ones, particularly the fact that she will be 2-3 years older than her peers and that might feel a lot at that age. Will also pass on the lack of contact time.. Gah, this is difficult!

If she's really not happy where she is then another 2 years there are going to be miserable, and she will always wonder "what if". Yes it's another year of fees but over a lifetime how much does that matter?
I don't think that it would be a problem to take time out and reapply. There are always going to be people who've had a year out or more between school and university, and mature students, so I wouldn't overly worry that she would feel massively out of place.
I would strongly recommend speaking with the admissions offices at the places she would want to apply to, to see if she would stand a chance of an offer.

Thanks @ChiaraRimini - we'd better crack on with that now. I've been in touch with her old school to ask if they can still help.