DD dropping out and reapplying to Cambridge - best to finish the full year?

[LitCrit]

Hi all - hope someone can help.

2 of DD's PGs were downgraded last year - we appealed, and won both, but alas too late for her to take her first choice place at UCL - she was desperate not to be hanging around for a year so took her insurance place at another London uni.

At the same time she changed her course from Politics to Eng/History. She now feels that she
a. should have done English only, and
b. that she should have held on and waited for UCL. She feels it is more prestigious and that the academic standards of her peers will be higher. She's aware this sounds snooty but she's trying to be realistic - she's very bright and has always been a couple of years ahead in terms of her reading and critical thinking, maybe more.

A complicating factor is that she had also applied for Cambridge, but didn't get an offer. She now feels that she was applying for the wrong course - she should have been applying for English (got A*) and not Politics, about which she has quite rigid Strong Views which I don't think will have made her seem very open and/or intellectually curious. Her teachers felt she had a very strong chance for English, less so for Pol - she wouldn't listen then but now agrees. She is much more open and free-thinking when in comes to literary theory than she is in relation to political ideas.

She is considering re-applying for English at Cambs, and for a few other RGs - Kings, UCL, Manchester.

If she drops out of her London U now she will save a full term's fees and will feel much better about the lost money. But would it be frowned upon by any of her preferred unis for next year to have left before completing the full first year?

And does anyone have any advice about re-applying to Cambridge for English after having not got an offer last year in a different subject? Would one be at a disadvantage? Will interview notes from last time be looked at again?

Thanks in advance for any help.

If it was my dd I'd be recommending she switch course where she is. Then set her sights on a masters at Cambridge.

I didn't mean to suggest that AAA wouldn't be enough - it's the standard offer. Just, I suppose, that in this situation meeting the standard offer by itself isn't going to swing it. 80s in English essays is another matter, though, and I agree with @kalidasa* that brilliant students with unconventional backgrounds are heartily welcomed!

From a purely personal perspective (i.e. this is in no way an officially endorsed view, and thus may not be much good to you) I think it is important to finish the year - not because it'll be a requirement, but because it sends a good message, and if the official grades are as high as you suggest it will certainly factor into the admissions decision.

I agree with others that say it is important to finish the year. It might be worth looking at the admission statistics for Cambridge here www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/ug_admissions_statistics_2019_cycle_0.pdf . For what it’s worth my eldest daughter didn’t get in to Cambridge for undergrad as she was rejected after interview. She completed her degree elsewhere and went back as a postgrad to do an MPhil and Phd.

There’s no guarantee she’ll get in to Cambridge, and she will have lost 2 years in the meantime. What does she want to do longer term? Studying at Cambridge is great (cam English graduate here) but it’s not the be all and end all. I think she should switch to English where she is/transfer to another London uni if possible and think about Cambridge postgrad if she decides she wants to be an academic (not much point otherwise).

Thank you again for all your input - you really are remarkable and fabulous.

I've spoken to her and passed the info on, as well as raising the questions that you've prompted about her motivations and how realistic her ideas are.

She (and I) definitely hear the argument for sticking where she is and aiming at Cambridge for post-grad - but she says she just doesn't feel 'at home' where she is, or engaged/challenged. I think she's really determined to give Cambridge a try. She says she wants to completely commit to her academic life and she thinks that to do that she needs to be with people who make her feel a bit underpowered - it's a driver for her.

If not, she will be very happy with either KCL/UCL (challenging, prestigious), and/or Manchester (slighlty less challenging perhaps, but brilliant fun - she's very into bands/music so that will be a real compensation). Perhaps Bristol.

She's agreed to finish the year and go all out for a first overall, to show that she sticks to her commitments etc.

In terms of being 'behind' - I know it sounds a bit lame but ... behind what? She'll either do academia or something creative, I think, where there is less of a first past the post pressure. Plus there's a possibility that at least some Unis will have a chunk of seminars online next year where she is and she really hates that - the delay will help make that less likely.

And in the end, happiness/mental health trumps all for us at the moment. She physically looks as though a huge weight has been lifted from her shoulders.

Thanks again everyone - though if anyone has any further advice about how to prep for her re-application for English and/or which college, Id be thrilled!

Some interview practice would be a good idea nearer the time for Cambridge / UCL. Both general subject stuff and also talking through an unseen text (often a poem). Otherwise plenty of reading well beyond A level syllabus and have things to say about it. She should follow her nose and read what she's interested in but also try to stretch herself -- eg earlier texts, poetry if she mostly reads prose or vice versa. A lot of good A level students can talk well about a text in terms of context and "issues" but much less so in genuinely literary / aesthetic terms. Practice thinking and talking about tone, style, form, technique.

And make use of her current university's resources while she still has access. What are first year English students doing? What are on their reading lists or what were they told to read before starting? If she can access any of this info online or via friends it could help her prepare.

That's fantastic @kalidasa - will do. We'd actually just been talking about reading a text in a way that doesn't Take A View - I was saying that she could do much worse than read through Guy Davenport's The Geography of the Imagination which I recently stumbled upon, having never heard of him previously. I'm finding it absolutely entrancing. I wish I'd been aware of him when I was at KCL in the 80s, I think I would have been more keen to stick with the text rather than treating them as sociocultural products. Not that that isn't interesting - it is.

Two years is a lot of time to lose. Could she possibly transfer from where she is with her current subject to a better institution for years 2 and 3 and then do the masters option?
3 of my children went to Bristol (did not try Oxbridge and they rejected Durham for Bristol) and that felt right for them in terms of similar peer group, academic standards of others etc.

It sounds like she would rather start ll over against in 2022 and is fine with that. i think my own views and my parents were it is very very expensive for children and parents to have children studying for long periods so the more you can get it over sooner and start supporting yourself the better. that is not everyone else's views and of course people have very long working lives - my doctor father worked full time to age 77. My children's other grandfather brought out his first book about valve technology in his 80s.

I may be completely wrong (and happy to be corrected) but I don't believe that Cambridge will consider applications from students who have already enrolled in a degree course at other UK universities.

@MrsIsobelCrawley thanks for the heads up. she won't at the point of application be enrolled, but will double check.

@Xenia Alas, no transfers available now and probably not much point transfering at the beginning of next academic year for Year 3, even if that were possible.

And yes, two years is a long time - but we definitely lean towards the 'life's long and one's a long time working' school, and would rather she started out closer to where she wants to be initially and with a positive feeling about having spent all that cash. We don't earn very much (at the moment - that might change, our earnings are up and down) so she's getting the full loan. Possibly we will be able to help her at a later date, but for now so she's taking the financial responsibility for her decision.

I am thrilled by the grandfather's book story, for myself :-D

She says she wants to completely commit to her academic life and she thinks that to do that she needs to be with people who make her feel a bit underpowered - it's a driver for her.

I think you need to be a bit wary of this if it’s one of your/her main motivations tbh. I graduated 10 years ago and the course hasn’t changed. English is one of the most self-directed subjects there is. Yes there are seminars - a couple a week probably - but supervisions are in pairs or alone and you write on a subject of your own choice. In third year all my supervisions were alone. Other students didn’t really impact me in terms of motivation, the topics I chose to focus on, or my performance. It’s not a competitive environment - you are encouraged to follow your own interests. The vast majority of time is spent reading alone. Lectures are optional. My sister went to Bristol and had a completely different experience - much more group learning.

It sounds like she’s got some kind of hang up about Cambridge rather than studying English (only switching to that subject after her results) and sacrificing 2 years of her life for something she might not achieve is a risky move IMO. I think you really need to untangle subject from university and think about what the real aim is here.

I think the same as @Sideofnoreturn

Has she found her "tribe" at university? This is a year when it has been difficult to experience Uni life to the full.......

Going for a masters at her top choice seems to be a much more pragmatic approach

Just chipping in another thought. First year undergrad is not representative of the whole course, even in a normal year. It may be there’ll be a shake out of the weaker students come year 2. There also should be more opportunities to specialise. If she’s not feeling challenged, are there interdepartmental modules she can take in years 2 and 3? Even master’s level ones, which are certainly an option where am.

@Sideofnoreturn - thank you, this is definitely food for thought. Have passed it on. I think she probably is regretful about Cambridge and feels a bit swizzed about UCL and wants to give herself a chance to put that right. However - she is aware that neither might come off, and feels hopeful that the others could come good (KCL/manchester/bristol etc), and will be satisfied with any of those if Cambridge doesn't work out.
The worst case scenario - that she gets no offers at all - seems unlikely. But if it were to happen, she'd just wait it out. As I said, she's not intending to go into a profession and is happy to see what unfolds in terms of a career - as both me and OH did, with varying degrees of success but not atrocious failure.
As a side point, I do feel now that the 'prizes' for an early start and heads-down focus on getting on and climbing a career ladder are somewhat in doubt, and that I can't in all conscience pressure either of them along a path that was already crumbling when I was walking it myself. if ever there were a decade to actually try and mean the parental murmur 'we don't care what you do as long as you're happy', now feels like it.

@chopc thanks - no, she never found her tribe. She found people she could hang out with but is depressed by the thought of that being her social life for two more years.

For me the wasting 2 years point isn’t so that she can graduate sooner, it’s thinking about what her life is actually going to be like during those 2 years - working in a dead end/part time job while all her friends are enjoying uni life? What kind of social life is she going to have? Her life will essentially be on hold during that time while all her peers move on. And for what?

Why doesn't she finish her degree, another two years, and then apply to Cambridge for a Masters degree?

@Sideofnoreturn I completely take your point. But she has friends in London through music/bands, and her political activism, whom she’s kept up with through this year and the couple of good friends she’s made at uni will still be available. I think the fact that we live In London and thats also where she went to uni means that kind of diverse social life has been possible. I’d be much more worried if we or she were based elsewhere.

To a degree that has been a downside though. Partly our fault - we encouraged her to stay close because we were unsure how much her adhd would impact her motivation and wanted to be around to help. Alis thought she could save money by coming back at any point. In fact, adhd stuff hasn’t been too much of a problem so nagging /‘encouraging’ has been unnecessary.

@impostersyndrome This is a very good point. She's already said that the second year modules are interesting and I think if either of the other things (peer group on her course / finding her social tribe) were in place she would hang in there. But ultimately the lack of either of those, plus the itching resentment at losing her UCL place and getting it wrong with Cambridge mean that she's really set on leaving and trying to get, at least, to where she would probably have been had Covid not hit us all.

Slightly out of line with some others, but actually I think it does make a difference whether or not you are with your intellectual peer group and she's not wrong to think about this. Of course you can make a success of a degree without being, and may get more attention / support especially towards the end if you are markedly ahead of the pack, but the average 'level' of a group does matter especially in more discussion/seminar-based subjects and teaching modes. At the moment, quite a lot of universities and departments are in practice taking students with grades well below their "official" offer at the moment. I have had experience of how this plays out in the classroom and it's not great for anyone. English is a competitive subject at the top end and this certainly won't be the case at Cambridge or UCL but might be a compounding factor where she is. As for college choice -- don't overthink it, but let her choose. The received wisdom is that "everyone ends up loving their college regardless" and I think that is usually true. I am an exception to this rule. I didn't much like my college and my feelings didn't change despite doing 4 years but I didn't choose it at all, my school told me where to apply, so I think there was a problem in that it never really felt like it had anything much to do with me! But I didn't really enjoy being an undergraduate at all, aside from the academic work, so my experience was probably not very representative in general. Most people have a good time.

Thanks again @Kalidasa, I agree that the ability of one's peers is not a nothing. Again, I think if everything else was in place, it might not be such a big deal.

Thanks, though, to everyone who's advised sticking with her existing course and going for a really good post grad. I know this would definitely be the most pragmatic suggestion, but the truth is that she's already made her mind up and I want to get behind her with all the help I can muster!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/higher_education/4187726-oxford-and-cambridge-current-students

You may be interested in this long running thread. There's at least one regular poster whose DC applied with grades in hand for English at Cambridge, along with others who may provide an insight.

Why doesn't she finish her degree, another two years, and then apply to Cambridge for a Masters degree?

Well my argument would be that two years being miserable and unchallenged is a heck of a time for a young person, and also that a Masters experience at Cambridge is nothing like an undergraduate one.

Best of luck to your DD OP.

It's not always good to take the sensible approach, in terms of happiness.

nc because I have direct experience of this.

It's relatively unusual to apply in this position (rather than post-A after a gap year), but it's not unheard of. I currently have one student who did this, and have admitted at least one other student in this position in the past.

However, be aware that some interviewers may not be as keen - the feeling might be that it's not quite the done thing, and especially that having done a year elsewhere an applicant is taking advantage of a year of degree-level teaching that hasn't been available to other applicants and is therefore advantaged in comparison with the rest of the field.

However, if your DD could make a serious case as to why she wants to reapply - especially if there is a subject change - then this may suffice. However, she'd need to be a strong applicant. The college will almost certainly not look at current essays or marks, as they will want to assess her on as level playing field as possible to other post-A candidates. So they will normally want her A-level grades, a school reference from her school, an ELAT sitting (as with any candidate), and submitted marked work from A-level. They will not normally want to see degree essays from her current course. So one thing she should definitely do, and ASAP, is to discuss her reapplication plans with her former school referee and explain why she wants to change course.

One factor she may want to take into account is 1. to speak to the admissions office at her chosen college or attend an open day; 2. perhaps to avoid the really oversubscribed colleges (eg. Clare, Jesus, Pembroke, St Catharine's, and so on). She might want to think about making an open application, or target her application at a mature college or a college like Lucy Cavendish which used to be mature-only and is now opening up to all-age applications. (The less oversubscribed colleges often are more open to applicants coming from less conventional routes or from courses elsewhere.)

The very best of luck to your DD, OP - and I hope all her applications go smoothly.