Another Path - part IV

[321zyx]

Apologies if I've done this wrong! I seemed to have filled up the last thread, hopefully the abbreviated title is ok!

Which is why your earlier advice: However in your position your DD needs to go with the options available to her. It is either to go for the Uni which has given her the home status or else once she has her results she can try and go to another Uni via clearing seemed a little black and white.

I am not sure how fee status is worked out. I had assumed it was set by the state so an English student has to live here a certain number of years before htey can get the student loans. A friend of mine from school settled abroad and her children came back here for sixth form boarding school - not sure if that then meant they get UK loans or if foreign status fees apply. However I was just surprised the position of the 5 this year for this girl differed. I agree it needs to be assessed each year as someone might move into x number iof years longer here or not here for 2021/22 than was the case for the year before.
At least if applying against for 2021/22 there is a bit more time to work out exactly where the 5 choices stand this summer perhaps so there is more certainty when the applications go in again in September if she chooses to try again for Oxbridge.

Anyway good luck to her whatever her decision.

Unfortunately, you’re very right in that we’ve provided the same information to all DD’s potential universities and they all seem to classify ‘ordinarily resident’ in vastly different ways. Her first choice is the only uni who are unwilling to budge on this issue despite reams of evidence (in the last email appeal we attached several Google Drive folders worth of evidence which took hours to compile). I’m not sure if the fact that this particular uni appears to have a far lower percentage of international students than her other choices has anything to do with this as I know all universities have international quotas they need to fulfil. I’m not sure what else they expect her to provide to be honest - she was born in England, is British applying for a British university with ample evidence showing a continued ‘habitual mode of life’ in the UK (think library cards, provisional driving licenses, medical records, national insurance number etc.) including spending several months of ever year there despite a temporary absence due to various factors.

Obviously, any decision regarding universities involves some level of risk but I’m not sure how comfortable I am with the idea of her rejecting all her other very safe options (lowered offers from both firm and insurance) to apply for Choice 3 through UCAS Extra. I’m fairly confident that under normal circumstances she’d get an offer but it’s a competitive course and their email to DD suggested that there weren’t any spaces left on this course in UCAS Extra (though DD knows that isn't true because her best friend rejected them a few weeks ago) whilst also implying that she could still potentially get an offer so I’m rather confused. I can’t help feeling angry about the fact that it was the university’s error rather than my daughter’s so why should she have to take such a risk and go through UCAS Extra just because she made a firm/insurance decision based on the options she had available to her after they accidentally rejected her.

DD’s been looking at potential module options and is still iffy about the insurance choice though she admits if she hadn’t got an offer from her firm she’d have been happy to go there. I think the issue for DD is that she feels reapplying wouldn’t change anything. At the moment, the thought of going through the process all over again fills me with so much dread. A gap year isn’t really a feasible option for us financially but even if it was, DD feels that she submitted the best application she possibly could have this time around so there’s no guarantee that anything would change regarding Oxbridge or our fee status. She also feels as if her LNAT score was a “fluke” and that she wouldn’t be able to achieve such a high score again if she resat it.

Having said that, her Oxford feedback said that she was one person away from getting an offer (this particular college usually has 10 places but this year only had 9 and DD was ranked 10th) so DD feels so frustrated with herself as she feels she could have done so much better at interview. I feel as if she still hasn’t fully processed the rejection but at the same time, she now feels that maybe it was a blessing in disguise as she’d be so much happier at her firm choice. I’m not sure what to advise her to do because I do think taking a gap year for the sole purpose of reapplying to Oxbridge is not a good idea (particularly in the likely event that it results in another rejection).

DD seems to have convinced herself that the best approach is to call up admissions at her firm choice tomorrow and explain her home life situation in great detail and why moving home to the UK earlier wasn’t a possibility but I’m currently of the rather cynical view that they don’t care whether she is actually able to go to their uni or not and so will continue to insist on international fees .

@Xenia Home status is worked out based on residency (living in the UK for 3 years prior to application) with a notable exception - you can prove that you’re simultaneously “ordinarily resident” in the UK and another country if you can show that living abroad is temporary and that “but for” a factor such as parent’s employment, you would be residing in the UK full time.

mangoguava given that only one uni is asking for international fees, I would say that there is a rebuttable presumption that #2 has got it wrong, and that the decision should therefore be reversed.

It also seems to me that #4 is going to lead to unhappiness, so should be ruled out of count (or rather, that's the approach I would take if this were my own DC).

It seems to me that since your DD's exams are over she could now usefully channel her energy over the next few weeks into insisting that #2 looks again at all her evidence and gives you a properly considered response. I would certainly ask them on exactly what basis they don't consider her a home student - which part of the evidence falls short - and would make the very strong point that they are alone out of all her choices in coming to that conclusion - so she has a right to a full response. #2 can't withdraw the offer so there's little to lose by being insistent.

You have a perfect right for it to be re-addressed at the highest level within the uni (and beyond - but leaving that aside), and so by the time the IB results come out your DD will be in a better position to consider a re-application if her results are good. If they are as good as predicted, and #2 has reversed its decision, then it's extremely likely that they would re-offer next year and you'd have the home status decision to wave in their face if they tried it again. If they stick to their original decision then a re-application to Oxford and elsewhere would have more point.

I would think it highly unlikely that the LNAT score was a fluke. That sounds more like a DC being ground down and worried than it being a real thing. If it was easy to fluke, top unis would't set so much store on the scores. Also, her Oxford feedback suggests that she mirrored her LNAT at interview.

A bad IB - different issues. But she was predicted nearly full marks you say, so here's hoping.

I left out the obvious choice of going to #2 this year if they reverse the decision!

No. 2 this year if they reverse the fees decision would be best. I would not have wanted to apply over again (which was suggested to me when I got much better results than expected). I just was not prepared to go through it another year and just wanted to get on with life - a very personal decision which will vary from person to person. Also next year might be difficult and uncertain (or better - who knows). As they cannot withdraw her firmed place she might even want to do a formal appeal over the classification of international status. So we know the practical difference? Eg no student loan at all and £15,000 a year fees if not a home student v full fees loan of £9250 a year if home student? Just we can see what the shortfall difference is?

@Xenia International fees are 21,000 pounds a year now!

Yes I would also consider a formal appeal, given that this one uni is out on a limb. I should have thought on that basis alone you would have a good chance of success.

You can also go beyond the uni in terms of appeal, but that would be very extreme and potentially very costly.

My guess would be that #2 will cave, once you get the right person within the organisation to read all the evidence. Since you asked for advice, I would say that your DD shouldn't talk on the phone other than to get the name of the next person or department u in terms of chain of command. It's much better for the purposes of formal appeal to have a paper trail of everything rather than a verbal account of a phone conversation. So I'd get name of bigger bod then write again with the specific request for info as to where your evidence is falling short of the stated requirement, and telling them that they appear to be the only uni with a problem.

*next person up

I am unsure whether Mangoguava's dd requires student finance too. Even if she gets "home status" from the uni she may not from student finance. It is usual for the student to have 3 years residency immediately prior to going to uni to qualify for home status.

Yes, that was what I was wondering - if the difference is £21k v nothing (as gets student loan ) or £21k v having to find £9250 a year.

DD would not be eligible for a student loan so we'd be funding 9250 a year.

Good advice @goodbyestranger, thank you. I'll make sure DD communicates in writing with Choice 2 rather than over the phone, although I feel as if they're not reading any of the evidence we're providing via email.

I’ve been following this and I’m confused about why your DD can’t take a gap year?
A part time job for some pocket money and then a reapplication next year. Plus as you’re saying DD should qualify for home fees status I presume your temp job is ending & you/DD will be in the uk.

I feel a bit dim... Is the policy to qualify for 'home status' you have to have lived in the UK for the last 3 years prior to going to university? If Mango's DD currently lives abroad how can she qualify for home status? What are choices #4 and #5 basing their home status on compared to #2?

It is like me, say, living in Scotland until DD was in Year 11 then wanting free Scottish fees even though we currently live in England or Dubai.

I missed the Panorama programme that focused on some students that have lived in the uk all or most of their life but do not qualify for home status due to their parent's immigration status. DD had a girl at her school that could not go to university because of this issue.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56984268

@Fairyfield, the crucial point would appear to be that the other universities accept that mangoguava and her DD are ordinarily resident in the UK and only not physically living here because of a short term employment contract abroad, but for some reason the fifth one has not accepted this.

(Of course, it is possible that her DD has serendipitously applied to the only 4 universities in the country which are out of kilter with the 'proper' view of the situation and any other university applied to would also not assess her as a home applicant, but that seems unlikely?).

Yes quite MarchingFrogs: four to one highly unlikely, which is why OP's DD probably doesn't need to simply roll over as previously suggested.

Did university #1 (Oxbridge) and #3 determine her status as they rejected her before it could be established? It could be that #1,2 and 3 see her as International and #4 and 5 Home.

I am just trying to sort this out in my own head and hope Mango's DD gets it sorted as it is a horrible position to be in.

SO I have not been following this like I would emails from a client, but surely it is one or the other - you qualify for a UK resident student loan of £9250 or else you do not and pay the £23k international fees? Instead it sounds like there is an intermediate category - that you are normally resident in the UK, connections here etc so do not pay the £23k but have not slept every night here for 3 years or whatever the test is so you do gt the £9250 fees but not a student loan to cover them?

I wonder if my school friend sent her sons to UK boarding school for 3 years not 2 then in order to qualify? I have no idea on what basis for fees or otherwise the 3 went to their UK universities however just that they did at least 2 years boarding school in the UK and then 3 years at UK universities.

Going back to my previous point.

If my DD lived in Scotland until Y11 and we moved to England for employment after Y11. Would she be eligible for free tuition because she was ordinarily resident in Scotland and only not physically living there because of her parent's short term employment contract in England?

I know almost nothing about international fees Xenia but I assume it's the usual issue of the intermediate category which can go either way according to the assessment of the evidence.

I am beginning to wonder how various students I've known with parents living permanently abroad seemed to qualify for home status....

Ds’s friend gave address as grandmother’s. Quite a few people I know who live abroad maintain a foot still in the door by paying a relative’s utility bills so they are on official documentation. This seems more than a bit off to me. Dh’s friend who is a tax exile has his names on his dm’s utility bills so he can have NHS treatment if necessary and so that he can claim old age pension in the future. It seems that there is a lot of expat advice now on how to game the system.

But if you 'officially' living in Surbiton but attend the International school of Dubai, how does that work?

Do you have to put your school on SFE forms?

I think I’m becoming over-invested in this as I googled the definition of ordinarily resident which allows for living overseas on a temporary basis - but temporary is open to debate. Eg the Scottish government has ruled 3-5 years as the limit. English guidance suggests that if you’re on a temp contract now but if already living abroad at the time of applying for the contract then its harder to argue that you would be living in the uk except for your job.

www.practitioners.slc.co.uk/media/1875/sfe-assessing-eligibility-guidance-ay-2122-v20.pdf

None of which helps the Ops DD who is caught up in a tangle not of her making, and I still think that if she can’t resolve it, then a year out of education earning some money and reapplying for 2022 would seem a sensible solution. It’s not like anyone has to spend a gap year saving elephants or (badly) building an orphanage before climbing Kilimanjaro. A customer facing role in a retail outlet or some waitressing at a cafe will develop great people skills which will stand her in good stead whatever she studies.