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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Return to university

381 replies

SouthCoastShell · 05/04/2021 18:04

I've just watched all of Boris's announcement and he doesn't mention when students can return to university. Does anyone know when students are allowed to return?

OP posts:
DelBocaVista · 10/04/2021 10:40

I'm not denying some universities handled it badly but the sector was totally screwed over by the government many times.
One of the biggest issues that impacted teaching was the A level fiasco.
Universities had made offers and planned their timetables and teaching - which had to be socially distanced which massively reduced the capacity of rooms. Then the government told us we had to take all students we'd made offers to thanks to their cock up. In many cases this made it impossible to teach f2f as we didn't have the rooms or staff.

changi · 10/04/2021 10:52

Agree. I was teaching groups of six in a room that would normally 20.

The only way normality can return in October is if social distancing is scrapped entirely.

changi · 10/04/2021 10:53

Normally seat 20.

mumsneedwine · 10/04/2021 10:56

@DelBocaVista I understand that so why did the websites not say this from late August when it was known ? Why did they still say f2f would happen ? And then change to all on line once kids had signed contracts in late September.
And why can't they now plan to all be back as normal from September ? Students will be able to go to festivals, go to pubs, go to nightclubs but not go to lectures. Don't wait for the government (as a teacher I know all about rubbish last minute guidance), get on and do it now. Tell the government this is what we are doing. Because the students deserve it after putting up with this year, at huge financial cost - some students have paid £7,000 to not be able to live in their accommodation. Not sure any of us would have put up with that.

DelBocaVista · 10/04/2021 11:01

[quote mumsneedwine]@DelBocaVista I understand that so why did the websites not say this from late August when it was known ? Why did they still say f2f would happen ? And then change to all on line once kids had signed contracts in late September.
And why can't they now plan to all be back as normal from September ? Students will be able to go to festivals, go to pubs, go to nightclubs but not go to lectures. Don't wait for the government (as a teacher I know all about rubbish last minute guidance), get on and do it now. Tell the government this is what we are doing. Because the students deserve it after putting up with this year, at huge financial cost - some students have paid £7,000 to not be able to live in their accommodation. Not sure any of us would have put up with that.[/quote]
I can only speak for the universities I know well. We were transparent and kept applicants updated weekly.
I don't know what people wanted us to do when it was physically impossible to fit people into lecture theatres and classrooms though. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Abraxan · 10/04/2021 11:06

@changi

Agree. I was teaching groups of six in a room that would normally 20.

The only way normality can return in October is if social distancing is scrapped entirely.

It is in schools, including sixth forms. So maybe it's time for that to happen in universities too. Masks, ventilation, hand sanitisers, etc.

By October everyone should have had at least one vaccine. Many will have had both.

mumsneedwine · 10/04/2021 11:13

@DelBocaVista wish it had been for my DD as she had nothing for weeks. Neither of my DDs or their friends Unis gave any information about not being able to fit students in, it was all about blended learning. All Russell group. DDs lot have mostly come back even if all on line as so fed up.
Why can Unis not plan fir Sept being fully open as normal ? It makes no sense. Tell the government what you are doing.

mumsneedwine · 10/04/2021 11:15

@Abraxan yup. My year 13s find it amusing that for now they can sit in a classroom learning together but come Sept they can't. It will be less amusing when they get charged £9,250 for the privilege of sitting in their bedroom alone.

changi · 10/04/2021 11:27

Masks, ventilation, hand sanitisers, etc.

Oh, we have all that, plus twice weekly testing... and 2m social distancing.

Agree that it needs to stop from Oct.

DelBocaVista · 10/04/2021 11:28

[quote mumsneedwine]@DelBocaVista wish it had been for my DD as she had nothing for weeks. Neither of my DDs or their friends Unis gave any information about not being able to fit students in, it was all about blended learning. All Russell group. DDs lot have mostly come back even if all on line as so fed up.
Why can Unis not plan fir Sept being fully open as normal ? It makes no sense. Tell the government what you are doing. [/quote]
We're still waiting to find out what we're allowed to do. If we are able to get rid of socially distanced teaching then we absolutely can get back to normal. I really hope we can. Teaching in a socially distanced way was not fun.

We can't just tell the government what we're doing. It doesn't work like that.

Badbadbunny · 10/04/2021 12:04

The thing is, Uni's will use the excuse of it being too late to return to normal F2F in September, so by default, there'll be another year of remote/online learning if we're not careful as staff/students either need to know they need to get back on campus or stay home. Uni's need to assume they're back to normal in September, foreign staff/students need to plan to be back on campus, etc.

If, in the unlikely event, that covid isn't under control by then, and further restrictions are needed, then, fair enough, cancel the plans and revert back to online. But that's the contingency plan, not Plan A.

Unis need to work with most likely scenario, which, given the success of the vaccination program to date and the plan to have all adults vaccinated in Summer, the low rates of covid at the moment etc, availability of testing etc., is that things will be pretty normal in Summer. With that in mind, uni's have no excuse not to be assuming a "normal" term in September.

Abraxan · 10/04/2021 12:04

@changi

Masks, ventilation, hand sanitisers, etc.

Oh, we have all that, plus twice weekly testing... and 2m social distancing.

Agree that it needs to stop from Oct.

But why not until October? Why not now?

That's been the case for 18y in schools since September last hear. Infact without masks last term. With masks since March.

What makes it fine for an 18y doing a levels but not an 18y starting a degree?

Abraxan · 10/04/2021 12:05

I meant to add the twice weekly testing - that's been since March this year in schools. Wasn't deemed necessary in autumn term.

DelBocaVista · 10/04/2021 12:09

Uni's will use the excuse of it being too late to return to normal F2F in September, so by default, there'll be another year of remote/online learning if we're not careful as staff/students either need to know they need to get back on campus or stay home. Uni's need to assume they're back to normal in September, foreign staff/students need to plan to be back on campus, etc.

Throughout this whole experience universities have planned for a range of scenarios.
At my university we have had to plan for three options - normal, blended, fully online. This has created a significant amount of extra work.

changi · 10/04/2021 12:23

Uni's will use the excuse of it being too late to return to normal F2F in September,

I've said several times that we are actually planning for several scenarios. Including a return to normal f2f in October. I can't imagine that we are the only uni to be doing so.

It is to universities' advantage to get back to normal as soon as possible. There is no big conspiracy to deny students their education.

What makes it fine for an 18y doing a levels but not an 18y starting a degree?

Perhaps write to your MP and raise the issue at governmental level.

As far as I am aware not one single university is operating without social distancing. If there was any room in the rules for manoeuvre, somebody would have done it.

Badbadbunny · 10/04/2021 12:30

@changi

Uni's will use the excuse of it being too late to return to normal F2F in September,

I've said several times that we are actually planning for several scenarios. Including a return to normal f2f in October. I can't imagine that we are the only uni to be doing so.

It is to universities' advantage to get back to normal as soon as possible. There is no big conspiracy to deny students their education.

What makes it fine for an 18y doing a levels but not an 18y starting a degree?

Perhaps write to your MP and raise the issue at governmental level.

As far as I am aware not one single university is operating without social distancing. If there was any room in the rules for manoeuvre, somebody would have done it.

Re the later point, yes, I'm sure they're all complying with social distancing, but the point is that some Unis are taking that further than the laws/rules require. I.e. not just reducing numbers in lecture theatres, classrooms, etc., but simply throwing in the towel and not doing F2F at all, even at lower numbers. Some Unis haven't had their staff/lecturers on campus at all, so there are entire subject depts/blocks sitting empty and gathering dust all year - no need for that, there could have been rotas or some staff on campus (working in socially distanced offices/classrooms etc) and others working at home. But no, just a blanket decision that staff/lecturers WFH all year unless for practical/lab subjects. That's way beyond the requirements of social distancing.
BackforGood · 10/04/2021 13:05

If you know 60 students who love on line learning and really don't want to meet people on their course I think it very very strange.

I don't. I never said that. Not sure why you are making things up.

As Abraxan said "dd is having a great time, all things considered".

I doubt there are many people world wide who have had "a great time" this last year. Our first year students' choice was to go to university and make the most of it, or not go to university..... and do what ? You can't compare our first years' experiences to first years' experiences from 2 or 3 or 5 or 10 years ago, because that isn't available. Like you can't compare someone starting a new job this year and wfh with someone starting the same job previously and working in an office. The choice (for many) has been wfh or don't start work) just the same as our first years choice has been stay at home with parents and do nothing or go to live in halls with other young people and study, so you are now 1/4 way through your course or stay at home with parent - not able to go out and mix with other young people at home, nothing to do or focus on for a year. Hundreds of thousands of students have taken on board that life in 2020 was very different and have still gone out and achieved things and enjoyed life.
As I've said - there will be those that have struggled. There are no doubt Universities or individual lecturers that have been poor (as there are in normal times, but probably amplified). There have been many students who didn't get on with their flatmates. My point is, let's not take those individuals and pretend all students have had a terrible year and wished they hadn't gone. It simply isn't the case.
Yes, my dd, and I presume all of her friends can't wait until life opens up more, same as most people.

Badbunny can you explain how you think a lecturer delivering a tutorial / seminar / lecture to 1/4 of their students and not the other 3/4 would work ? Or are you expecting them to do it 4 times over, obviously leaving time between the repeats for the students to change over and sanitise the touch points etc? Or is the lecturer supposed to just choose which 1/4 or the cohort gets that tutorial ?

Newgirls · 10/04/2021 13:24

@Badbadbunny

The thing is, Uni's will use the excuse of it being too late to return to normal F2F in September, so by default, there'll be another year of remote/online learning if we're not careful as staff/students either need to know they need to get back on campus or stay home. Uni's need to assume they're back to normal in September, foreign staff/students need to plan to be back on campus, etc.

If, in the unlikely event, that covid isn't under control by then, and further restrictions are needed, then, fair enough, cancel the plans and revert back to online. But that's the contingency plan, not Plan A.

Unis need to work with most likely scenario, which, given the success of the vaccination program to date and the plan to have all adults vaccinated in Summer, the low rates of covid at the moment etc, availability of testing etc., is that things will be pretty normal in Summer. With that in mind, uni's have no excuse not to be assuming a "normal" term in September.

Yes absolutely. If businesses, offices, schools, colleges etc can plan for this then so can unis

Enough excuses.

Phphion · 10/04/2021 13:41

As has been repeatedly stated, universities have planned. We have spent days and days planning for every different scenario. We actually have everything in place to resume socially distanced small group teaching from 19th April. But it looks like this plan, like many others we have had will not happen because of events outside our control.

We could, if we wished, choose any one of the various different plans we have in place for September and announce it to the world. But that would be unfair to the students, it would be 'duping' them because in reality, we do not know if events outside out control mean we have to go with a different plan, again. So we are waiting until we can make a more informed guess about what can feasibly happen, so we can in good faith give students proper information, not just what we really hope will happen.

Cowbells · 10/04/2021 13:45

Badbunny can you explain how you think a lecturer delivering a tutorial / seminar / lecture to 1/4 of their students and not the other 3/4 would work ? Or are you expecting them to do it 4 times over, obviously leaving time between the repeats for the students to change over and sanitise the touch points etc? Or is the lecturer supposed to just choose which 1/4 or the cohort gets that tutorial ?

Couldn't live lectures to a smaller cohort be streamed to the rest? The tutors certainly shouldn't be doing any more than they already are but I think the sooner some F2F teaching occurs, the sooner this poor intake of students will claw back some of what they have lost. I feel quite bitter (not at any teaching staff!) at what a meagre experience my DC have had in comparison with students two years ago. They've lost that crucial first year of making friends, settling in, growing up, going a bit wild. All those rites of passage. They've been denied all of this, just as they missed out on the rites of passage of leaving school. I feel so sorry for them.

DelBocaVista · 10/04/2021 13:54

Couldn't live lectures to a smaller cohort be streamed to the rest?

How would that be fair? We have to offer all students the same otherwise they would (rightly) complain.

We are planning. As I've already mentioned I have three different versions of my timetabled planned. Which one gets delivered is out of my hands.
We are still waiting for the government to tell us what we can do. We are frustrated by the situation too!

CovidCorvid · 10/04/2021 13:57

Online learning is a different kind of pedagogy from f2f. Might work for true lectures apart from the fairness aspect but most lectures aren't 100% didactic and will encorporate activities, etc. Which will be different if online or f2f.

mumsneedwine · 10/04/2021 14:22

I am well aware that the last year has been pants for everyone and that the students have made the best of it. But from now on that's not good enough. Now they need definite plans for September. And why can't you tell the government this is what we plan - not like they are issuing any guidance. If all Unis say they are going back to normal I very much doubt anyone will query it. When my DDs tutor said it would be on line again next year because no one had complained I was so angry. How can adults who work with young people not realise the impact this year has had.
Didn't make anything up though. Was said that 60 students didn't mind on line learning. I've yet to meet one who prefers it.

DelBocaVista · 10/04/2021 14:27

And why can't you tell the government this is what we plan

Why couldn't schools dictate to the government about how they wanted to operate?
Why can't pubs/shops/hairdressers tell the government how they want to operate?

It doesn't work like that!!

Phphion · 10/04/2021 14:30

Our first year lectures have almost 500 students. The technology cannot cope with live streaming to that big a number. Some departments have tried having seminars with a mixture of people attending in person and others remotely and it hasn't worked. People can't hear each other, the remote people don't join in and the in-person students forget to speak to them and talk over them.

We have been doing in-person seminars for those who can attend and on-line ones for those who can't. Each student has been getting 2/3rds of their teaching face-to-face unless the government prevents it. What was previously a one hour seminar is now three one hour seminars due to the limits on room capacity and having to provide an additional on-line seminar. The first seminar taught by our staff is at 7am, the last ends at 7pm.

As well a simply working longer hours, like many other departments we have made this extra time by essentially tanking our research, and our research income. This is not only bad for our staff, but as a previously rich department we used our research income to subsidise extra teaching, equipment and events for UK students whose fees don't cover these things. Next year, they will have less. Still way above what we are required to offer them, but still less.

We also don't know who will be teaching them. To compensate for the loss of research income across the university, loss of income from giving students a rent waiver if they don't use their accommodation and the additional costs of making the campus safe for face-to-face teaching, the university is looking to lose up to 10% of its staff. We have just entered the second round of voluntary redundancies of the pandemic.

I don't know if we would have done things differently if we had known how long this would go on for and how much it would cost us, but I can understand why other universities have not taken this route.

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