Return to university

[SouthCoastShell]

I've just watched all of Boris's announcement and he doesn't mention when students can return to university. Does anyone know when students are allowed to return?

I'd take a look at the latest (31 March) Government modelling before discounting the possibility of a 3rd wave. I think timing and scale is in question rather than 'if'.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/975909/S11822SPI-M-OSummaryyofmodellinggofeasinggroadmapstepp2restrictions.pdf

@Phphion

Unlikely is not definite.

Once we are back to normal times, to get a course revalidated as a solely online course, you lecturer friends will have to prove, with actual hard data, that 'the students want it' (amongst other things). Course (re)validation is an onerous process involving a lot of data and passing through several different assessment committees at different levels in the university. It is not just a case of saying 'I fancy teaching online' and then doing it.

Exactly. At my university you also have to prove you are qualified to teach online and understand the pedagogy of online teaching and learning.

@sandybayley

I'd take a look at the latest (31 March) Government modelling before discounting the possibility of a 3rd wave. I think timing and scale is in question rather than 'if'.

[[https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment]]data/file/975909/S11822SPI-M-OSummaryyofmodellinggofeasinggroadmapstepp2restrictions.pdf

It’s all change isn’t it - just saw something saying they are now not counting rapid flow positives when also tested with pcr so cases have gone down by 8000, meaning zero in some areas.

@Phphion

Unlikely is not definite.

Once we are back to normal times, to get a course revalidated as a solely online course, you lecturer friends will have to prove, with actual hard data, that 'the students want it' (amongst other things). Course (re)validation is an onerous process involving a lot of data and passing through several different assessment committees at different levels in the university. It is not just a case of saying 'I fancy teaching online' and then doing it.

Yet it seems to be happening as ‘gov guidelines’ with the excuse/reason.

The gov of course doesn’t have any motivation to help students here - they don’t vote Tory and most have very few options other than continue with their course and pay their cash. And unis seem to be happy to go along with that position.

But you are not suggesting your friends are saying they can't teach face-to-face because of government guidelines preventing them from doing so (which is a perfectly reasonable position to take during a pandemic and something that lies outside revalidation procedures as it is an exceptional circumstance).

You are suggesting that your friends don't want to teach face-to-face even when the government allows them to because they can't be bothered to travel to work, and that universities will be perfectly fine with this and not question it at all, which is not true.

Teachers don’t have the option to work online indefinitely; why should lecturers?
An online course should be marketed as such and offered as a different product and at a different cost. There’s no way my DC want an online or “blended” degree course.

There’s no way my DC want an online or “blended” degree course

Even if a degree of blending would improve their overall experience?

@Phphion

But you are not suggesting your friends are saying they can't teach face-to-face because of government guidelines preventing them from doing so (which is a perfectly reasonable position to take during a pandemic and something that lies outside revalidation procedures as it is an exceptional circumstance).

You are suggesting that your friends don't want to teach face-to-face even when the government allows them to because they can't be bothered to travel to work, and that universities will be perfectly fine with this and not question it at all, which is not true.

We shall see. If a lecturer say ‘I’m worried about covid’ is a uni going to tell them to come in? Even if it’s very low in the uk and most adults will be vaccinated? I get the impression from this thread and other sources that unis will go along with that and not question it. Prob depends on the seniority and influence of the staff member and their union too.

@changi

There’s no way my DC want an online or “blended” degree course

Even if a degree of blending would improve their overall experience?

Lectures were already recorded so not sure what improvements the blended approach gives to most students (we are mostly talking undergrads here, not mature/post grads)

get the impression from this thread and other sources that unis will go along with that and not question it.

You are wrong. It really doesn't work like that.

Lectures were already recorded so not sure what improvements the blended approach gives to most students (we are mostly talking undergrads here, not mature/post grads)

I've already given one example. It makes me more accessible to my students.

Why is there a presumption that blended learning is only popular with mature students? They are quite rare.

@changi, I guess it depends what exactly is meant by "blended". If it means everything f2f (lectures, labs and tutorials) AND recorded lectures then I suspect DD would think it an improvement. Students were not allowed to record lectures previously unless they had permission from the DSA. I don't know what is "normal" for DS's course; as a fresher he has only had online lectures. He was fortunate to have 1:1 supervisions ftf in his first term - albeit outside!

Students want to meet other. Meet the people of their course. And this is usually done in lectures, seminars etc. In person, together, as humans like to be. Most are back at Unis in some places as kids would rather be with each other. But how do they meet their course mates if not doing the course together.
They want a normal Uni experience not some 'blended' stuff. They don't care if you all like it better, they want what their older brothers and sisters had. What you had. Why can we not give then that ? It seems the least we can do after they've given up so much this year to protect the older generations. I find it very very selfish.

@mumsneedwine

Students want to meet other. Meet the people of their course. And this is usually done in lectures, seminars etc. In person, together, as humans like to be. Most are back at Unis in some places as kids would rather be with each other. But how do they meet their course mates if not doing the course together. They want a normal Uni experience not some 'blended' stuff. They don't care if you all like it better, they want what their older brothers and sisters had. What you had. Why can we not give then that ? It seems the least we can do after they've given up so much this year to protect the older generations. I find it very very selfish.

Do you understand what we mean when we say blended learning? There are some huge benefits to offering a blended approach which involves a decent amount of f2f supplemented with online teaching and learning.

@DelBocaVista well I’m sure there were benefits to some students and disadvantages to others. It’s not up to you or I to decide what happens. Unless universities formally change the way their courses are delivered and ask permission to do so for those who pay for the service then the default is back to the way it was before the pandemic.

Blended learning can work but the f2f element needs to be way in excess of the online, especially for first year students. They need to meet up, have the chance to get to know one another, work together and make friends with people on their courses.

Dd barely knows anyone's name from her course and there has been very little f2f interaction. They have break out rooms but it's very directed and limited, Trying to interact with others online is very hard when you are with strangers. It's much easier for people who already know one another. She really enjoyed the group work when it was allowed f2f briefly, albeit mainly outside.

Fortunately she met some friends in her private accommodation, albeit not from her flat (they went home after 3-4 weeks) and has bubbled with a good mix of 8 students from different courses and different years and had made friends and found people to move in with next year.

Other students we know via dd elsewhere really haven't had that chance and still haven't sorted accommodation for year 2 as they aren't sure who to live with or had chance to make proper friends.

@DelBocaVista yes I understood. But it's not what my DDs, or their friends signed up for way back when they applied via UCAS. They applied for a normal Uni experience and that's what they would like.
And that's what they are paying for.

[quote cinammonbuns]@DelBocaVista well I’m sure there were benefits to some students and disadvantages to others. It’s not up to you or I to decide what happens. Unless universities formally change the way their courses are delivered and ask permission to do so for those who pay for the service then the default is back to the way it was before the pandemic.[/quote]
Actually, as a course leader I do get a say in how my course is run.

I'm pushing for as much f2f teaching as possible and have done all academic year. I was teaching f2f right up until December when the government told us to move online.
I love teaching f2f and was very reluctant and unhappy to be put online. I am desperate to be back on campus. However, I will admit that some aspects worked better online.
My students had guest lectures from experts based all over the world which would have been impossible if we weren't online. They much preferred tutorials and supervision to be online and really enjoyed the fortnightly virtual drop in sessions.

They also felt the online interaction prepared them for the working world.

Blended doesn't mean inferior.

@DelBocaVista it might not be inferior in teaching terms. But it is in social terms. And first years need that just as much.

Again, it all varies so much. my 1st year was assured she would have blended learning before she started.
What blended meant was one in person teaching session (2 hrs) every 3rd week, the rest all online. And that was in the first term when in person teaching was allowed!

[quote mumsneedwine]@DelBocaVista it might not be inferior in teaching terms. But it is in social terms. And first years need that just as much. [/quote]
I agree but that doesn't mean blended can't work providing there is a good amount of f2f interaction.

@DelBocaVista good for your students. However, I am sure some students in different universities on different courses would completely disagree wi he enjoying blended learning and I highly doubt the response was completely unanimous in your course either. I’m sure you have a say in your individual course but I thought on this thread we were talking about all universities in general. No one lecturer or student makes the decision on whether it will be fully face to face or blended learning. It is obviously a university wide and even national policy.

And my DD has not had guest lectures let alone her normal lectures. They simply uploaded lectures from previous years. So as you can see @DelBocaVista you cannot talk for all students. I am sure your anecdotes are useful but it is not useful to extrapolate your students experience (or what they have told you about there experience) on to the entire student population.

I think it's very easy to dismiss the social needs of students, especially for first years new to the course, the university, the town/city, new to living away from home, etc. That has been a massive issue this year and students have lost out a great deal.

Mumsnet and the media was full of how important school was for the social side, more so than the education side. For most students I suspect the same could be said for university.

Dd and her friends from across different places and courses haven't had guest lectures either.

And those could still be arranged online pre and post covid. The idea of having online for special events such as that isn't new surely. We've even have it in schools online in the last. Pretty much ever since internet and video has been common place in education.