Return to university

[SouthCoastShell]

I've just watched all of Boris's announcement and he doesn't mention when students can return to university. Does anyone know when students are allowed to return?

[quote cinammonbuns]@DelBocaVista good for your students. However, I am sure some students in different universities on different courses would completely disagree wi he enjoying blended learning and I highly doubt the response was completely unanimous in your course either. I’m sure you have a say in your individual course but I thought on this thread we were talking about all universities in general. No one lecturer or student makes the decision on whether it will be fully face to face or blended learning. It is obviously a university wide and even national policy.[/quote]
It's very difficult to talk about universities as one homogeneous group. Every university has a different approach because they're autonomous institutions. Even within individual universities faculties/schools often operate independently- I work in an education faculty and our approach has been different to our science faculty.

@DelBocaVista well of course but as we can see almost all universities have adopted blended or full online learning since the pandemic so I do believe it is reasonable to discuss whether in general the majority of universities will continue this type of learning or return to F2F fully once the pandemic no longer requires online or blended.

@cinammonbuns

And my DD has not had guest lectures let alone her normal lectures. They simply uploaded lectures from previous years. So as you can see *@DelBocaVista* you cannot talk for all students. I am sure your anecdotes are useful but it is not useful to extrapolate your students experience (or what they have told you about there experience) on to the entire student population.

I teach higher education policy and practice. I have spent a lot of time researching and understanding students' experiences. While there have been some examples of poor practice ( in which case I would encourage students to complain) there have also been some examples of excellent, innovative teaching and learning and this essentially is what students are paying for.

I really do feel for students and, in particular, first year students. They have missed out on the social aspects of university but not all of that is the fault of universities and it doesn't necessarily mean the teaching was poor ..... but if it was then complain!

[quote cinammonbuns]@DelBocaVista well of course but as we can see almost all universities have adopted blended or full online learning since the pandemic so I do believe it is reasonable to discuss whether in general the majority of universities will continue this type of learning or return to F2F fully once the pandemic no longer requires online or blended.[/quote]
And you've got individual staff from universities sharing what it happening in their institutions.
Unless the government tell us to stay online every university will approach this differently.

@DelBocaVista who do they complain too ? They've not met staff, they've not met each other. They are 18/19 and trying to behave during a pandemic in new cities with new friends. Where do they complain ? How ? No one tells them this weirdly.

[quote mumsneedwine]@DelBocaVista who do they complain too ? They've not met staff, they've not met each other. They are 18/19 and trying to behave during a pandemic in new cities with new friends. Where do they complain ? How ? No one tells them this weirdly.[/quote]
The complaints procedure will be on the website and in their student handbook.
There will be a 3 stage complaints process and if you aren't happy with the outcome you can take it to the Office of Independent Adjudicators for HE. Their complaints procedure is very clear.

If students need support they should contact the students union.

There also will be student panels and course committees- students can feedback to their student rep who will feedback at the course committee.

@DelBocaVista my DD has complained and has gotten the usual canned response and so have other students even thode who have escalated further so I have advised her to no longer waste her time on that and focus on studying as best as she can.

I would love to see your research on the current COVID student experience outside your individual course. I also work in higher education and my experience has been that almost all students have struggled immensely and I have not seen any innovation outside of the use Zoom meetings (if that counts).

It’s not a lecturer or academic bashing thread but I do think it’s disingenuous to act as if students are really getting what they are paying for when countless academics have said they have struggled to deliver there courses in the best way for learning .

I’m not sure anyone has implied it is the fault of universities. It is understand the quality of teaching will fall in such a situation as the quality of almost everything has fallen due to the pandemic.

@mumsneedwine I would really not bother with the complaints process. It will not only take months but I have not heard of any response being given at any university bar from ‘the university staff are making the best out of bad circumstances/ in exceptional times.’

If @DelBocaVista has heard of any real /concrete action being taken at any university as a result of complaints during the pandemic I would love to hear about is as then perhaps it will be worth my DD complaining further however I have not heard of any myself.

[quote cinammonbuns]@DelBocaVista my DD has complained and has gotten the usual canned response and so have other students even thode who have escalated further so I have advised her to no longer waste her time on that and focus on studying as best as she can.

I would love to see your research on the current COVID student experience outside your individual course. I also work in higher education and my experience has been that almost all students have struggled immensely and I have not seen any innovation outside of the use Zoom meetings (if that counts).

It’s not a lecturer or academic bashing thread but I do think it’s disingenuous to act as if students are really getting what they are paying for when countless academics have said they have struggled to deliver there courses in the best way for learning .

I’m not sure anyone has implied it is the fault of universities. It is understand the quality of teaching will fall in such a situation as the quality of almost everything has fallen due to the pandemic.[/quote]
If they have had a poor experience then I would encourage them to continue to complain. The universities minister is very clear about that.

I'm not denying that some students have had a poor experience but that's not every student. It would be remiss of us to not evaluate this and keep doing what has worked well and has had good feedback.

If I'm honest about what my preliminary research has found then it's the newer universities that have adapted best and have demonstrated the most drive, creativity and innovation.

Most first years have had an awful experience. It's been shit. So now Unis need to get back to normal as soon as they can to help them. Not continue on line, not do blended learning, get them back into rooms learning together. That's what they want. That's what they pay for.

I really hope that can happen.

@DelBocaVista let's all hope it happens soon. We all want what's best for the poor kids. 😊🤞

One other factor to weigh up when thinking about the experiences of our students and the different approaches by each institution is the range of impacts of Covid across the country. Students in Leicester for example will have been under stricter restrictions for longer than students in, say, Exeter where generally speaking Covid rates have been far lower

Some excellent posts DelBocaVista

@mumsneedwine - where are you getting "most" from ?
Not the experience of the 60 odd first years I've enquired about, from different backgrounds, from different parts of the Country, doing different subjects and attending Universities around the country, and different Universities of all kinds.

and I'm not sure why you keep repeating "paying for". Unless they are international students, then students don't "pay for" their courses unless they benefit from them and earn more highly due to benefiting from that degree, when the repayments start to kick in.

I am absolutely certain that some students have had a really disappointing experience. I am pretty sure there are universities that have let their students down, but I am also certain that there are many, many institutions that have done their very best in what has been a horrendous year for the whole world.

@mumsneedwine

Students want to meet other. Meet the people of their course. And this is usually done in lectures, seminars etc. In person, together, as humans like to be. Most are back at Unis in some places as kids would rather be with each other. But how do they meet their course mates if not doing the course together. They want a normal Uni experience not some 'blended' stuff. They don't care if you all like it better, they want what their older brothers and sisters had. What you had. Why can we not give then that ? It seems the least we can do after they've given up so much this year to protect the older generations. I find it very very selfish.

Agree

@mumsneedwine

Most first years have had an awful experience. It's been shit. So now Unis need to get back to normal as soon as they can to help them. Not continue on line, not do blended learning, get them back into rooms learning together. That's what they want. That's what they pay for.

Too true. They're now paying a fortune for their degrees. Online degrees are far cheaper so Uni's need to be open and honest and offer cheaper fees if they're not going to do face to face lectures etc. They should have a two tier system so the few who are happy with remote/online can choose that and the majority who want the full Uni experience can choose that. Unis shouldn't be allowed to get away with vague "blended learning" statements and need to be fully transparent about how teaching will be, to give students a choice. The days are long gone of the old attitude of "it's free so you have to put up with it".

@BackforGood I have not met or spoken to one first year who has enjoyed this year. They've made the best of it. Some Unis have tried their best but now need to plan to get back to normal from September. That's what these young people are paying for - not sure how accruing an annual debt of £9,250 is not paying for it.
If you know 60 students who love on line learning and really don't want to meet people on their course I think it very very strange. Why did those people not choose an on line course in the first place ?

Well put @Badbadbunny. Agree completely.

The only students I know who have not returned to Uni are students who were unhappy being away .My 2 are back and having a great time,all things considered

'All things considered'

That means not totally.
Dd is having a great time all things considered.

However, they've not had a great experience really when you look at it. They've made the best of the situation.

But by now they should be back f2f, just like schools are. The age thing doesn't wash when you know that sixth formers have been back full time f2f. There is no reason why it's okay for an 18y sixth formers to be getting full time f2f lessons but not okay for an 18y student not to be.

@user1487194234 so are mine. But my first year would now like to meet some others on her course (she's been lucky as has had an hour or two a week in person, but then it's hard to learn how to flip a sheep on line). And to meet the staff who are teaching her - she'd like to meet her tutor in person and be able to ask a question in a lecture in person. In person feedback is vital for good teaching. It's why schools are back (that and it was deemed bad for the mental health of the students to be cooped up away from their peer group 🤷‍♀️).

@Abraxan I have been teaching 18 year olds in person for all but the 6 weeks of lockdown this academic year. It's why it makes me so mad that my 18 year old hasn't had the same.

DS has had some good news.

• One of his practical-based modules confirmed that they will be offering in-person lab sessions from the start of term.
• Yesterday afternoon his college announced that students are now able to submit requests to return.
• Yesterday evening DS's tutor confirmed that he has permission to return to his accommodation, which means that his keycard will be programmed to allow access to his room.

He has instructions to return on a set date, then self-isolate (including from the rest of his household) until he has taken part in their PCR screening programme and received a negative test result. It sounds as though they have solid measures in place to mitigate risk.

Thinking of those who are still waiting to hear if they will be allowed to return this term / be able to access their accommodation.

They should have a two tier system so the few who are happy with remote/online can choose that and the majority who want the full Uni experience can choose that. Unis shouldn't be allowed to get away with vague "blended learning" statements and need to be fully transparent about how teaching will be, to give students a choice. The days are long gone of the old attitude of "it's free so you have to put up with it".

That would include universities recruiting more staff. Pretty much every university has made redundancies over the last few years.

Universities do have to be transparent about teaching style , hours etc. During the last year we've been operating under emergency Covid regulations but OfS still expect us to offer up as much transparency and info as possible but it is difficult when we've had little or no government guidance. This is due shortly which means universities will be able to make their plans public.

@DelBocaVista

They should have a two tier system so the few who are happy with remote/online can choose that and the majority who want the full Uni experience can choose that. Unis shouldn't be allowed to get away with vague "blended learning" statements and need to be fully transparent about how teaching will be, to give students a choice. The days are long gone of the old attitude of "it's free so you have to put up with it".

That would include universities recruiting more staff. Pretty much every university has made redundancies over the last few years.

Universities do have to be transparent about teaching style , hours etc. During the last year we've been operating under emergency Covid regulations but OfS still expect us to offer up as much transparency and info as possible but it is difficult when we've had little or no government guidance. This is due shortly which means universities will be able to make their plans public.

Some Uni's weren't transparent last September. Even though F2F was allowed in a socially distanced manner, Uni websites were very vague and some Uni courses had no F2F, despite it being allowed, but students didn't know that until after they'd committed in September. Some Unis changed their websites almost immediately after deadline day to weaken their "promises" about F2F despite Govt guidance not changing around that time. At the very least, Uni's should have been doing as normal as possible having regard to restrictions in place at the time, but many Uni's went far further than restrictions required.

It's time that Uni's came out with a firm commitment that it will be "normal" in September/October unless there are any restrictions remaining at that time, and only then, reduced F2F only to comply with temporary restrictions. Unis need to be telling their staff now to prepare for returning to campus in September and planning for normal F2F. If Unis don't intend to do that, they need to be telling their students/applicants so that they can make a properly informed decision about whether to sign up (courses and accommodation) or not.