Personal statements - WTF?!!

[StartingGate]

DD 17 starting to think about Uni applications for 2022. Goes to a big city State school in Scotland. Has had no Uni guidance at all from school due to Covid. We’re stumbling through getting a sufficient education to pass the ‘non-exams/exams’ with good grades. She got 7 As at Nat 5 last year but hasn’t decided what she’s taking for Advanced Highers (you get Uni offers based on the exams you take this year - 5 Highers)

I’ve just been researching Personal Statements and I’m thoroughly depressed. There’s kids who are already members of political parties, been on UniQ courses at Oxford, Head Boys, Head Girls, people who have done work experience in UN Headquarters or High Courts, who have digested the works of Wittgenstein and worked part-time in schools, solicitor’s offices, law firms, orphanages - kids who have won competitions for public speaking, set up and composed for their string quartets - it is utterly staggering.

My DD is bright but quite shy and undecided on what she wants to do. Her passion is music and shes working towards Grade 8 in one instrument and Grade 7 in another. She’s attended a council funded orchestra every Saturday since she was in Primary school, and is in another external orchestra that rehearses on Sundays when there are performances. She’s working hard on Grade 5 Theory which she’s taking in June. But she doesn’t do anything in school as far as music is concerned apart from perform when it’s needed for exams. She has private lessons for both her instruments - that’s all been on Zoom this past year.

She’s chosen to keep her music separate from school life which she associates with academic work. She says she wants to continue with her music but not necessarily study it as an academic subject. Many of the Music degrees seem quite ‘elite’ and intimidating.

So she’s not in any school groups, doesn’t have a part-time job, doesn’t do any sport. Did DofE Bronze but hated it. She’s not Conservatoire standard (yet) or in a choir but is very good (her teachers both say she has genuine talent) and has come on in leaps and bounds with her playing these past 2 years since she’s had the private lessons. Not hugely into social media (thankfully)

Any spare minute, she’s playing her instruments or teaching herself to play other instruments recording and composing music, writing some lyrics (but keeping them to herself for now) using all sorts of Music computer software. She was into personal fitness and nutrition but that’s gone off the boil since Lockdown closed the gyms. Likes going out on long walks in the countryside. She’s interested in the world of politics and into self-improvement and psychology and how people’s brains work. Watches lots of instructional videos and Ted Talks online. But none of the showboaty stuff that I’ve seen on the Personal Statements I’ve read.

How on earth is she going to get into university without all that extra stuff? She has indicated an interest in politics, psychology or philosophy but her school doesn’t offer those subjects or certainly didn’t when she was picking her subjects at the end of 2nd year.

Can you not go to university and learn new stuff? Do you have to show an in-depth involvement and knowledge of any subject you’re applying to (And of course I understand that you need to evidence your interest by mentioning what you’ve read and be able to explain your interest) But most of these personal statements sound like they’ve been written by kids who’ve already attended University! We don’t qualify for any adjusted offers based on school or postcode.

Anyone else feel like this? Any tips on what she can do (once this intense period of testing is over) to make herself more attractive as a candidate for university?

How on earth is she going to get into university without all that extra stuff?

I'm not bring funny, but you've just listed a whole pile of achievements that demonstrate your daughter's interests, commitment perseverance and creativity.

It's been many years since I was first admitted to university, but I got many offers, despite my interests extending not much further than taking walks along the beach and hanging out with my mates.

She'll be fine.

She already sounds like a very attractive student for university. She should just keep being her and she will be fine. You don't need grand additions to a PS.

Most unis just want to see a passion for the subject they've chosen to study. Reading around the subject, lectures (online is fine) MOOCs, work experience/volunteering in something relevant, independent research into something related, attendance at a school society - perhaps presenting a couple of sessions etc.

Obviously if your DD decides to study music, then all of what you have referred to is highly relevant.

None of my DC did any of that stuff, but 2 of them were really interested in the subject they chose and were able to talk about their passion for it and why they wanted to study it. DC3 wasn't even that interested in the course he chose to study, had no work experience or committed hobbies ( unless you count gaming/Youtube videos/Reddit) but good ( not outstanding ) GCSEs. He was offered places at RG universities. His reference from school would have read something along the lines of "bright but lazy and disorganised."
I don't think you have anything to worry about, especially if your DD is applying somewhere where she can join in some sort of music scene/orchestra. The personal statement is really just to see if they are literate, as far as I can see. If she can explain why she wants to study whatever subject she chooses in convincing terms, she should be OK.
I have a relative who has helped lots of teens apply to top universities - her take is they need to be able give examples of things they have done- eg if choosing Art, refer to recent exhibitions they have seen. Refer to whatever inspires them and future career plans.
Your DD sounds fab.

Experienced UCAS statement helper here! The main focus should always be:

-Why your DD was first attracted to the subject
-Why your DD wants to study it at university
-What your DD hopes to do after university

If your DD can cover those three points well that will come off miles stronger than a weak statement that rambles about extracurriculars, positions of responsibility, DofE etc. Most statements focus so much on trying to 'fit everything in' that they completely lose focus

There are great non-elite music degrees out there.

To major in performing, most kids would be beyond grade 8 by uni, playing at diploma level.

I wasn’t destined to be a solo performer (grade 8 in two instruments but no flair or presence for performing).

I studied a more academic music degree and then went into music publishing for my career. I do also do some paid playing and teaching.

I know plenty of musicians who can earn a modest living doing a mix of playing/teaching work but COVID has been catastrophic for players relying chiefly on playing income.

As for your opening question any personal statements, it will be a minority who have the head girl/student council/extensive volunteering to write about.

Learning to play an instrument to a good level shows great traits of application, determination, self-motivation etc. and orchestral playing is great for collaborative work, commitment, having to listen to others, take direction etc.

Thank you all. I think I’d been put off by my reading somewhere that an interviewer had sniffily dismissed a candidate who had put their Grade 8 violin on their personal statement - they thought it entirely irrelevant to the course they were taking. That was an Oxford application though.

So they can put that stuff into their PS just not go into too much detail if it’s a non-music related course? I have seen how competitive the local Conservatoire is and no way would my DD qualify for entry as people come from all over the world to attend and are playing at waaay beyond Grade 5 Theory and Grade 7/8. Another year or 2 and it might be a different story.

I’d like my DD to expand her horizons and I feel bad that she hasn’t gone to a brilliant school (not a bad one but below par when it comes to encouraging pupils to aim high)

I can see her doing a MOOC or two over the Summer and might get her to look at doing some volunteering. She does fall between posts when it comes to her ‘social standing’ - gets teased for doing all the classical music stuff by her school mates and then feels a bit ‘fish-out-of-water’ when she mixes with some of the private school pupils in her orchestra. But she’s not awkward or overly anxious and loves having discussions about issues like freedom of speech and women’s rights - she’s quite articulate but has played that down to fit in with some of her classmates (infuriatingly so sometimes!)

I will just gently point her in the direction of some websites and then get off her case while she knuckles down for the coming assessment onslaught. I hope we get to leave our local authority by the time school finishes. Nicola hasn’t said when we’ll be allowed out of Scotland yet and we have the small matter of an election to get through!

Thanks bravefox your insider info is greatly appreciated. I think in asking those 3 questions of DD we can actually assess whether University is what she actually wants. I hope it is and she vaguely says it’s what she wants but I’ll take the time to explore this with her. It’s a balance between encouraging someone who hasn’t had the constant coaching towards academic achievement and excelling in that respect from their school and therefore needs gentle nudging - to assuming that University is ‘what happens next’ when there might be other options.

Food for thought. I just want to do right by her.

I think I’d been put off by my reading somewhere that an interviewer had sniffily dismissed a candidate who had put their Grade 8 violin on their personal statement - they thought it entirely irrelevant to the course they were taking

That should reassure you surely? If grade 8 violin wasn't relevant to the course why did it get mentioned?

Admissions tutors generally don't give two hoots about instrument playing, UN stuff, political stuff, unless it's relevant to the course.

So if she wants to do music, but sensibly recognises she isn't good enough to be a performer, she just needs to say why she wants to study it, something about favourite composers, etc.

(And being blunt for most courses the PS isn't actually read!)

You would put grade 8 violin under the qualifications section of the UCAS form. No need to mention it in the personal statement unless it was relevant to the course.

I hope they do away with personal statements. Not all children have opportunities to do any sort of work experience (let alone “the right sort”) or to take up several sports and musical instruments.

If it’s any comfort OP, my non-sporty, non-instrument-playing, clever, techie DS got 5/5 offers at excellent universities. I hope his passion for his chosen subject is what swung it. But who knows - maybe they just cared about his grades. I think it’s a system that embeds inadvertent (or deliberate) bias. Not a fan!

My dd struggled with her personal statement as she doesn't do anything or go anywhere, hasnt done work experience, etc

She applied for computing and must have put down about her computer skills and art skills (she didn't show me what she wrote!) But she also got guidance from her pupil support teacher.

She got an unconditional offer from strathclyde uni so couldn't have put them off too much

you're being daft, OP. Most kids do not have hugely impressive PSs & haven't done all that stuff. Universities would never get nearly enough kids to fill their courses if what you think is minimum was minimum that PS needed to say.

I have read huge number of PSs by kids who have got as far as interview stage at medical school where I work. It would be discriminatory if we favoured kids who have done anything that costs huge money & requires huge parental support, btw. We can't give bonus points for any such activity.

Kids who spent a lot of their time looking after granny with dementia or sister with autism or had 3 yrs of Saturday job working in a shoe shop are more likely to make a good impression than fact of UN-whatever-thing.

Reading your post I wondered if she would perhaps be interested in music therapy?

Starting one of my twins is not a joiner and despite having gone to a fee paying school he joined just about nothing. I think he was in the orchestra and choir for about 2 years only and did volunteering in a school only because it was compulsory and said his bronze D of E was the worst experience of his life. He still got into Bristol.

Most universities want to see how much someone loves the subject not loads of details about hobbies although mention the music.

It sounds like she might enjoy a music degree. I did loads of music at university but read law. I had grade 8s including music theory and that is a lot of work . I think we need to be careful not to discriminate against children with supposedly "elitist" hobbies like classical music or lacrosse. They put as much work into that as someone who has grade electric guitar or plays football or works in a shop.

I think the grade 8 violin story form Oxford was actually that the university was sniffy about that for someone who had applied for a music degree, IIRC they were told they had too much interest in performance.

That aside, the examples you found online of PSs sound very very extreme.

I also think you are sounding a bit imposter syndrome-y on behalf of your DD. She sounds a very accomplished young woman with excellent grades so far (7As for goodness' sake!). She should have the confidence to apply freely and ambitiously to whatever she sets her mind on

ps being a member of a political party just involves giving them money

Most of the extras on the PS cited have no relevance to a music degree at all. So they shouldn’t be on the PS for a music application. Honestly, OP, they are not relevant.

The best idea is to read what are the components in the degree. Look at various university web sites and see how her skills and attributes measure up. Aim high but look at a variety of courses. They won’t all be the same.

Then she needs to think about why she wants the course. How do her skills and attributes mean she would be a good student? What has she learnt from study and other learning opportunities that add to her application? I don’t think she has to say what she wants afterwards but a sentence wouldn’t hurt if it’s a strong ambition. Any orchestra, choir, helping music teacher at school or any extra activities that are musical should be mentioned. If she’s not doing anything extra, she should consider what she could do. DofE bronze does cover volunteering. So that’s a good thing if it’s music based.

Generally, music degrees are not the hardest to get into. So look around and be assured she doesn’t have to be perfect but remember there is an academic side to the degree so be exposed to as much music as possible and look at the courses to see what would suit her best. The Complete University Guide is a good start.

The other thing worth saying is that if her passion for music leads her to wanting to apply for Conservatoires:
a) they are a separate application form, so you 'use up' no options applying to them as well and
b) admission is solely on audition. Grades are irrelevant - some applicants will have worked through them all, some have done them long ago, some will have done none or very few. On the classical side, it is probably commoner to have done them, but for other genres it is equally common to have done none.

DS is at conservatoire, though not classical. He took Grade 8 in his first study only just before he applied, and never took Grade 5 theory. He had lots of ensemble experience of different types through the county music service, similar to your daughter. He was definitely admitted for potential and sheer love of his chosen genre, not for his accomplishments at the point of admission.

My dd has been applying for lots of the summer schools and access programmes that some universities run (Imperial, Cambridge HE+, KCL), on most of the applications they positively discriminate for young people on free school meals, or first generation to go to uni, or from schools where fewer people go to university. She's attending lots of online webinars and open day events. And she's got on a week's online work experience through speakers for schools. I would say concentrate on narrowing down degree choice, then start to do in depth reading and research so you have interests to discuss in personal statement and interview. For instance, be able to say whose work you admire, or who inspires you. She sounds fab and extra curriculars should be a throwaway line only on the PS.

(Oh, and his PS is a classic. It breaks every singe online PS rule, and he sat down and wrote it one summer afternoon - beware, conservatoire application dates are EARLY. I thought school would completely re-write it with him, but it made everyone smile because it just oozed enthusiasm for his subject and so it was submitted virtually unchanged. His reference from school is equally bizarre - the history department made a last-ditch bid to tell everyone how great he would have been at History. In the end, what mattered was audition, part of which was an interview)

bravefox I disagree completely about any need to say what an applicant hopes to do after university.

My daughter has apoed this year and her personal statement she talked about her passion for the subject etc.
She has been lucky so far with 3 unconditionals.... And she's not a straight A Student.
These are courses that are v oversubscribed.. 1 place for every 50 applicants sort of thing.
So don't worry about having enough.. The trick is to make it short enough!

If your DD can cover those three points well that will come off miles stronger than a weak statement that rambles about extracurriculars, positions of responsibility, DofE etc. Most statements focus so much on trying to 'fit everything in' that they completely lose focus

Leaving aside the point about graduate ambitions, you're being a little either/ or bravefox. It's entirely possible for a personal statement to focus on aptitude for the course and interest in it until the last couple of lines which reel off national competition winner/ part time job for four years/ head girl etc too - slam dunk.