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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Personal statements - WTF?!!

70 replies

StartingGate · 02/04/2021 13:27

DD 17 starting to think about Uni applications for 2022. Goes to a big city State school in Scotland. Has had no Uni guidance at all from school due to Covid. We’re stumbling through getting a sufficient education to pass the ‘non-exams/exams’ with good grades. She got 7 As at Nat 5 last year but hasn’t decided what she’s taking for Advanced Highers (you get Uni offers based on the exams you take this year - 5 Highers)

I’ve just been researching Personal Statements and I’m thoroughly depressed. There’s kids who are already members of political parties, been on UniQ courses at Oxford, Head Boys, Head Girls, people who have done work experience in UN Headquarters or High Courts, who have digested the works of Wittgenstein and worked part-time in schools, solicitor’s offices, law firms, orphanages - kids who have won competitions for public speaking, set up and composed for their string quartets - it is utterly staggering.

My DD is bright but quite shy and undecided on what she wants to do. Her passion is music and shes working towards Grade 8 in one instrument and Grade 7 in another. She’s attended a council funded orchestra every Saturday since she was in Primary school, and is in another external orchestra that rehearses on Sundays when there are performances. She’s working hard on Grade 5 Theory which she’s taking in June. But she doesn’t do anything in school as far as music is concerned apart from perform when it’s needed for exams. She has private lessons for both her instruments - that’s all been on Zoom this past year.

She’s chosen to keep her music separate from school life which she associates with academic work. She says she wants to continue with her music but not necessarily study it as an academic subject. Many of the Music degrees seem quite ‘elite’ and intimidating.

So she’s not in any school groups, doesn’t have a part-time job, doesn’t do any sport. Did DofE Bronze but hated it. She’s not Conservatoire standard (yet) or in a choir but is very good (her teachers both say she has genuine talent) and has come on in leaps and bounds with her playing these past 2 years since she’s had the private lessons. Not hugely into social media (thankfully)

Any spare minute, she’s playing her instruments or teaching herself to play other instruments recording and composing music, writing some lyrics (but keeping them to herself for now) using all sorts of Music computer software. She was into personal fitness and nutrition but that’s gone off the boil since Lockdown closed the gyms. Likes going out on long walks in the countryside. She’s interested in the world of politics and into self-improvement and psychology and how people’s brains work. Watches lots of instructional videos and Ted Talks online. But none of the showboaty stuff that I’ve seen on the Personal Statements I’ve read.

How on earth is she going to get into university without all that extra stuff? She has indicated an interest in politics, psychology or philosophy but her school doesn’t offer those subjects or certainly didn’t when she was picking her subjects at the end of 2nd year.

Can you not go to university and learn new stuff? Do you have to show an in-depth involvement and knowledge of any subject you’re applying to (And of course I understand that you need to evidence your interest by mentioning what you’ve read and be able to explain your interest) But most of these personal statements sound like they’ve been written by kids who’ve already attended University! We don’t qualify for any adjusted offers based on school or postcode.

Anyone else feel like this? Any tips on what she can do (once this intense period of testing is over) to make herself more attractive as a candidate for university?

OP posts:
Phphion · 03/04/2021 18:34

You can do an interesting experiment with that site:

Look at the statements for your DD's subject (or, if there are not many choose a subject where there are a reasonable number, at least 15 or so).

Imagine you are the admissions tutor. The students you make an offer to are students you will end up teaching.

Read all the statements back to back, one after the other, giving yourself no more than three minutes to read each statement.

Now reject at least half of them.

Which ones did you choose to accept, and why?
What was it that made the ones you accepted stand out, or at least got them across the line into the accept rather than reject pile?

choirmumoftwo · 04/04/2021 00:38

Hi OP. My DD worried about her personal statement as she felt she had little to offer from an extracurricular point of view that was relevant to her chosen degree, despite being heavily involved in music and dance outside of school. She just described how her hobbies encouraged her in time management, teamwork etc. but focused mainly on why her subject was so interesting to her (heavily maths based).
She got 5 offers at 5 excellent universities (not Oxbridge but that was her choice not to apply). Good luck to your DD - she sounds very well rounded.

Wbeezer · 04/04/2021 10:00

Not all Scottish unis even look at PSs, I'm pretty sure Glasgow doesn't. I think BEdinburgh does and St Andrews is supposed to pay attention to them, both these unis are the last to make offers usually so that does seem to suggest they at least read all the PSs. Saying that DS2 got into St Andrews without any typical extra curricular stuff, no DofE etc(he played the cello for fun but only got to grade 2 before an accident meant he lost partial function in his right hand and arm sadly). His statement just focused on his interest in the subject and how that had developed, how it was informing his school work and works view and where he hoped to take it.
I read lots of PSs to get an idea of the clichés and he tried to avoid those, especially in the opening lines (he was applying for history and we avoided mentioning Horrible Histories!).

Wbeezer · 04/04/2021 10:01

Sorry, lots of toys and missing punctuation, typing without glasses!

Embracelife · 04/04/2021 10:07

"and loves having discussions about issues like freedom of speech and women’s rights"

She can refer to a book or article or debate she attended and say what she learned and why it draws her to study politics or philosophy etc

But her school should advise her or some workshops locally or mentor scheme

MarchingFrogs · 04/04/2021 10:27

Gresham College runs lectures on a wide range of subjects and they are all livestreamed and recorded now, with the transcript also available for lectures going back several years.

When audiences were admitted (most are held at the Museum of London), the average age was probably somewhere past 50 for most that I've attended, but DS1 and DS2 have also come with me to some.
Some Politics ones here:
www.gresham.ac.uk/watch/?subject=politics

ssd · 04/04/2021 10:49

I totally get your involvement @StartingGate

Its hard enough at the best of times without a bloody pandemic in the mix. We didn't go to uni so had no idea how to advise the dc. But i still tried and of course schools were normal then.
Lots of good advice here. Good luck with it all.

Piggywaspushed · 04/04/2021 11:17

Oh ta marching! just found some great stuff on there for teaching!!

punkingscissors · 04/04/2021 11:22

@OhYouBadBadKitten

She already sounds like a very attractive student for university. She should just keep being her and she will be fine. You don't need grand additions to a PS.
My DD didn't have all those grand additions, what she demonstrated was a passion for her subject and extra reading around her subject. She got offers from the five universities she applied to.

Your DD will be fine.

Comefromaway · 04/04/2021 11:45

Universities are not at all interested in extra curricular unless they relate directly to the subject they will be studying.

My son will be applying for music but things like his singing group and musical theatre shows simply show he has a parent willing and able to pay for them. What will count (along with his actual standard of playing) much more in his personal statement is talking about the music he composes and arranges, the podcasts he listens to and more importantly what he has learnt from them and what he thinks of them. He’s been lucky enough pre Covid to be able to network on social media with people like pit musicians and from posting clips has had invitations to shadow them in shows. But it will only be relevant in his PS if he can articulate exactly what he’s learnt.

His school had no orchestra, choir was a group of 8-10 kids led by a 6th former who met each week to rehearse songs from the shows. There were no captains of this that or the other and D of E was only available to those who could afford the trips.

WeAllHaveWings · 04/04/2021 20:48

@StartingGate, understand where you are at. ds(17) will be applying for Uni 2022 and I also had a look at Personal Statements now for a couple of reasons, firstly because I have heard from parents that previously attended his school that it is poor at supporting pupils applying to uni (very few go from his school) so it will probably be me supporting him and secondly, while he is concentrating on studying to see if there is anything he needs to think about and start doing now.

Reading the online example personal statements for engineering and the achievements in them are terrifying when I compare to ds, so I can relate to what you are thinking! He is a bit ahead as he knows what he wants to study (civil engineering) but looking at the personal statements we need a few long haul holidays to see some super structures to truly ignite this as a passion, and also raise the money and go to and design and build a couple of schools in an impoverished African nation to prove he is really interested 🤦‍♀️

Just now I would prioritise supporting your dd working out what she wants to study as that might influence her S6 options. ds is taking a crash higher in geography he didn't expect to in S6, it is not required for uni admissions but it is related to the civil engineering discipline.

Also, thanks to those that gave constructive answers on personal statement, they have helped me too and have saved the thread for when the time comes!

PresentingPercy · 06/04/2021 12:00

@WeAllHaveWings

My DH is a Civil Engineer and has employed grads for years.

I can absolutely assure you: you do not need to visit anything abroad in person. It is not a race to spend money!! Nor is it remotely necessary. No one gives a XXXX about helping to build a school in an African country. The DC in question will not have deisgned it. They have just paid for priviledge. It is far more relevant to gain knowledge about what is around you and write about how that inspired your desire to be an engineer.

Therefore what he needs to do is write about what does interest him. Believe it or not it could be land drainage and motorways!!!! The things that we need in this country. Anyone can go and look at our bridges, roads, railways and big infrastructure projects that are close to home. Read up about great engineers. Look at all the info available on the Institute of Civil Engineering web site and the Institute of Structural Engineering web site. See what they offer for budding engineers. Are there talks he could listen to?

Lots of the larger consultancies write up detailed project notes too. Look at those for inspiration. Try and get hold of the New Civil Engineer magazine. Coming across as well informed and keen is good enough. Few MEng/BEng courses are wildly competitive.

Ask to do work experience at a Civil Engineering consultancy. DH has an office in Glasgow. (There are many others!). Do not be shy about asking.

Geography and sustainable engineering is very topical and he certainly would get work! Do not expect all civil engineers to get work with the big name consultancies. Plenty of others offer a wide variety of interesting projects.

I would strongly suggest that he does MEng. If possible. It takes less time to quality for Chartered Engineer status when working. Or start with BEng and continue with a masters. BEng now limits quick progression to CEng in the profession.

Most of all - do not think you have to spend a fortune igniting a spark. Those sparks are all around you in the UK.

WeAllHaveWings · 06/04/2021 16:51

@PresentingPercy, sorry if it never came across but the long haul holidays and building schools was tongue in cheek 🤣

Thanks for all the pointers they are very helpful.

He is concentrating on studying for his Highers in the next few weeks, but has recently joined and is looking in the ICE site for virtual events that won't go completely over his head. I will tell him about the Institute of Structural Engineering as I don't think he has come across that one yet or the magazine (he has been reading a couple of books instead).

He is aiming for a MEng and then Chartered Engineer if he gets the grades. If he doesn't get the grades then 2nd choice would be a BEng and hopefully follow up with a Masters after.

Work experience is on his list, he has already asked the school and they are trying to find contacts through Ayrshire Chamber or local companies for him, but he will start writing directly soon to see if there are any possibilities for work experience in the current circumstances. He is doing a prerecorded virtual work experience with Morrisons Construction in Glasgow next week which has a section with one of their civil engineering grad apprentices and also a section on design.

PresentingPercy · 06/04/2021 18:23

Well I was hoping you weren’t taking excessive PS statements and travel seriously! We are on the same page.

Civil Engineering courses will include structural engineering. They are very linked. MIStructE is the qualification and there are far fewer of them than MICE. Both are worth looking at. Also look for info on Environmental Engineering if he’s interested. There is also transport and highway engineering. The Engineering Council has details. There might be on line events for young people regarding engineering careers so look out for anything interesting.

NCE magazine is the magazine for ICE. The institutions tend to have magazines to illustrate good design and they include design awards. So a decent source of inspiration. It might also be a source, via a directory, of civil engineering consultancies in Ayrshire.

I am not sure when employers can start doing work experience again! However doing some whilst at university is worthwhile. Hopefully will be possible then.

poppycat10 · 08/04/2021 09:08

When I went to uni hobbies etc were important. However, the personal statement was much shorter, about 15 lines of handwritten text on a paper form. Universities used to be interested in how you would contribute to the life of the university.

Now you just have to write a page of guff about how you love your subject (no, you just want to study it because you like it/are good at it/think it will get you a decent job).

Anyway ds got 5 offers out of 5, but who knows if anyone read his personal statement...

PresentingPercy · 08/04/2021 09:27

Lots of university courses now state if the PS forms part of selection or not. Sometimes it’s a tie breaker. You don’t need to assume anything. For some courses it might be given a weighting and at Oxbridge it’s definitely read! They might ask you a question on it at interview. It’s also good practice for writing and if your course is highly sought after, it might well be read and taken into account. If a course is taking every student it can get it undoubtedly won’t matter.

mids2019 · 08/04/2021 11:39

I think it's about super curricular not extra. Compare it to a job application where your employer is looking at relevant skills and experience not what hobbies you have.

I think a demonstration of commitment is important to give the impression you are doing the course because you want to not because you can.

I think extra curricular fell out of favour because it favoured the middle classes and university selection culture is now about diversification. In one sense this is a slight shame as university life should be a little more than pure studying and there should be an addition to university life (through sports or music for example).

steppemum · 08/04/2021 11:45

DS is 18, and hopefully going to uni in Sept. He doesn't have any of that stuff.
2 things
1, They were told that the bulk of your personal statement should be about your passion for your subject and why you want to study it, and should not be about extra curricula stuff.

  1. The biggest factor in getting offers is your predicted grades.

ds got offers from all he applied to

PresentingPercy · 09/04/2021 12:12

That advice is fairly blunt. At some universities it might well be about GCSEs attained. It could be about what work you have done to support your application. However all the weightings given should be spelled out.

I also think "passion" is a totally overused word too. Being interested is good enough. You do not have live, eat and breathe a subject.

I actually think the most interesting people and best educated people do more with their lives than just study. School should open up lots more oppofrtunities to develop as a young person and young people should take advantage of it.

We have 35% of grads in non grad level work. Just going to university without any other demonstgrable skills can be problematic if you leave with the same frame of mind. Getting the skills at universaity that are lacking upon entry is vital. Employers like good communication skills, being able to work effectively with others, some demonstration of leadership, being able to juggle study and other pursuits, etc. It is for these reasons we still see privately educated DC outperforming comp DC for top jobs. They have realised that there is more to university and getting a job than exam grades.

bottleofbeer · 16/04/2021 02:28

Does she want to get into an elite uni? If not then tbh, they're not arsed. It's bums on seats at 9250 a year. As long as it reads well and she bigs herself up, along with entry requirements, she's likely in.

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