To think universities should state separate entry criteria for Indies?

[Wacamole]

DD who is on track for 3A*s at A’level, thought she’d give Oxbridge a go after being encouraged by her teachers. All very excited, doing super curriculars etc. Only just been told she doesn’t meet minimum entry criteria that would be expected from an Indy, which is straight 9s. She doesn’t have straight 9s, she has straight 8s (couple of nines), not only that, the course she wanted to apply for at Cambridge doesn’t require Maths at all, but school has advised they won’t even look at her if she doesn’t do Maths AND Further Maths. She is doing neither. Apparently an EPQ is also mandatory even though none of this is mentioned on Cambridge website.

All this second guessing, reading between the lines has been really confusing.
I have no issue with universities asking for higher entry criteria for students from indies for obvious reasons but wish they would be more transparent and state this on their ‘Entry requirements’ same way they state contextual offers?

@RosesAndHellebores Same experience in my son's school-the majority of last year's students who reapplied after rejection during gap year with achieved (either CAGs or after retake) 3A*+ grades got unconditional offers from Oxford/Cambridge and the other competitive unis.

sandybayley, the alternative is to have a gap year as a plan b. So DS applied to the top four courses with the full intention of reapplying if he did not get one first time round but got his predicted grades.

Because of the level of competition, each was a bit of a lottery. His school advised that he might get all four, he might get none. As it turned out, he got one which was all he needed.

Would anyone have information on what Oxbridge looks for in applicants for pure Economics degrees and how competitive it is? We are an international family. DS is in an indie. He did IGCSEs rather than GCSES in India, so has 8 A and one A. Predicted three A in A levels, including Further Maths. We will of course have safeties for our other choices, but the school seems to think he shd take a punt at Oxbridge ( though chances are slim).

@Needmoresleep You could literally be describing my son and his thinking regarding his choices (and also his school's advice!). He is fortunate to have an offer from Warwick which he is excited about and is still waiting from LSE , however the level of competition has been astonishing. It is likely of course that it had always been like that and we're only finding out now!

My general advice (and am not an Oxbridge expert - my siblings went but I did not try and my 5 children did not apply there) is consider subjects carefully wherever you go eg some are less popular and may require lower grades or face less competition and secondly the school in this example may just know there is a huge help state schoolers thing going on at present so best not to get the hopes up of those at fee paying schools and may be that is why they are being a bit negative - have a go but don't expect to get in remains good advice. My 5 thought the chances of getting from their fee paying schools v. the effort you have to put into applications to Oxbridge wsa not worth the extra work (lazy so and sos......although I can understand their thought processes and they did fine - 3 went to Bristol and loved it for example). My daughters are lawyers in London (and their twin brothers hope to be) and lack of Oxbridge does not seem to have held them back with careers in law.

@Bluebris Certainly the bar has been raised way beyond what it used to be pre pandemic. DD has received a non-committal reply from Cambs. It's kind of a summary of what everyone here has said (can you guess I'm really tired?, just had Covid jab yesterday and really feeling the effects - feverishness etc). Within context, but no hard and fast rules, more emphasis on A'levels than GCSEs, Maths not needed but strongly advise EPQ.

DD has decided to go for it and to do an EPQ. My advise was even if she doesn't get into Cambs, the work she has done will hold her in good stead for other top universities, work she otherwise might not have done.

Could you email a particular college you are interested in to see what their view is on Maths and EPQ?

They can only give it their best shot. Forget about the number of 8s and 9s for a bit, and focus on whether they can demonstrate being a bit special at the subject they're applying for. Most applicants will have a damn good set of GCSEs as well as stellar predicted A levels. You can't really count on those to make you stand out.
Oxford seems to me to be more consistent with offers. From what I've seen on the boards here, it appears that whatever A levels you're doing, Cambridge expect you to do well. Could this create the impression of a higher bar for indie applicants, who are more likely to be taking four subjects?

@Wacamole As someone who has been there I think this is a very healthy and sensible approach :). All the best in whatever she does!

This was ds approach he just wanted to feel he’d given it a shot . The only thing I would say is don’t underestimate the extra toll in that Autumn term ; the early PS , the exam in half term , the work submission , the waiting to see if you have an interview , then the interview itself ( especially if Oxford and they have to stay ) then the waiting .it’s had not to get invested. He was relaxed when he was rejected, very happy with his other offers , but we definitely underestimated the stress and extra effort involved. ( he was independent, straight 9s and EPQ )

FWIW I remember a very talented linguist from my private school back in the Seventies who had 8 GCSES at A* (all that could be taken) and 3 A grades. She didn't get into Oxbridge and intimated it was because she was interested in language and linguistics not literature. She became a highly paid translator at the UN and EU after a degree in what really interested her and wasn't on offer at Oxbridge.

I wish people could get over Oxbridge. Go for the degree that interests you wherever in this country or the world it is. Or don't go to university at all. One of my DCs shouldn't have bothered and is doing something unrelated to their course.

Back in the day I filled in my own UCAS forms and got myself to my own interviews aged 16 by train and bus. Yes, I did get to Oxbridge (in the days they did interviews post entrance exams after A level).

Namenic She has already watched a webinar from the college she is interested in about admissions for this course and they have stated categorically that Maths is not a requirement at all. Infact none of the colleges ask for Maths, although it could be seen as useful but offers will not be based around it.
DD has also emailed the college but hasn't heard back from them yet, she heard back from admissions.

@DahliaMacNamara That's exactly what I told DD. Forget about the 8s and 9s and focus on demonstrating her capability in the subject which I believe she has.

I teach at an inner city comp with good A Level results and we have about a dozen apply every year with very similar GCSE grades. Almost all or all seem to get to the interview stage then 50% get an offer. I think often , as a previous poster has said, it relates to the fact that so many talented youngsters apply that inevitably exceptional students will not be offered a place.
The most exceptional student in my subject did get offered a place and promptly got 600/600 for the A level so I guess they were right about him!

That’s just not true. I’m a teacher at an independent school and a 6th form tutor and pretty much everything they’ve told you is incorrect. You absolutely don’t need an EPQ, and although they would expect good GCSE results straight 9s are not needed. I’m not sure where they’re getting their info from. Oxbridge set a lot of store bu the entrance exams and then the interview.

@crosstalk - not sure how they could have had A at GCSES in the 70s when neither A grades or GCSEs existed!

It is also relevant where your DC’s grades and predicted grades lie within their cohort.

DS applied for Cambridge last year and was rejected after interview. He had 11 8s and 9s and predictions of A A A, but this put him in the bottom 50% of his (super selective) cohort.

Of course, he may also have arsed up the interview - who knows?

@KingscoteStaff

It is also relevant where your DC’s grades and predicted grades lie within their cohort.

DS applied for Cambridge last year and was rejected after interview. He had 11 8s and 9s and predictions of A A A, but this put him in the bottom 50% of his (super selective) cohort.

Of course, he may also have arsed up the interview - who knows?

I think if they bothered to invite him to interview then his grades were fine so more likely to have been the interview!

@Musmerian

That’s just not true. I’m a teacher at an independent school and a 6th form tutor and pretty much everything they’ve told you is incorrect. You absolutely don’t need an EPQ, and although they would expect good GCSE results straight 9s are not needed. I’m not sure where they’re getting their info from. Oxbridge set a lot of store bu the entrance exams and then the interview.

Agree with this. Dd had an Oxbridge offer without epq etc.

@titchy - I think it was probably the interview, too!

But it can't be irrelevant that the school is asked to assess where each candidate lies within their cohort on the academic reference.

@Bluebris congratulations to your son. I am assuming economics or similar. If so Warwick is very good indeed, and well liked by recruiters.

Seven years ago we were also taken by surprise. Britain has the advantage of a number of very good Universities which are popular with students from all over the world. It was odd. When we told British people that DS was going to LSE, the assumption was that this was second best to Cambridge. In contrast Europeans and Americans seemed impressed by LSE in its own right. I think these attitudes are reflected on this board.

Cambridge, Warwick and LSE offer very different student experiences, but academically all will give a good student the same post graduate opportunities.

@Bluebris Just noticed your ds's fantastic offer for Warwick. Good luck to him, very good uni.

If your school is one that likes to advertise it's success for pupils getting into Oxbridge, medicine... etc. then it's possible they try and dissuade people they don't consider "dead certs," from applying.

I work with postgraduate medical students, and a recurring theme is that their (private or grammar) schools told them not to bother applying at 18, even though they had the grades. They then do a related degree but can't shake the itch and apply in their 20s. Most of them would have stood a good chance of getting in at 18.

What subject is it, OP?

@LetsSplashMummy no school publishes data about the number of Oxbridge applicants- that's a silly thing to say

@Wacamole, @Needmoresleep thank you for your kind words. @needmoresleep you couldn't be more right - we are in fact Europeans (moved to the UK when DS was 7) and we find the perception of Oxbridge as the be-all and end-all quite difficult to understand. They certainly are two excellent universities but they are not considered to be in a different league to other top uk universities like LSE or Imperial (UCL, Warwick, Durham and the other RG universities are lesser known individually but still have a great reputation as top uk unis). Having said that , DS applied to the top 4 unis for his subject (yes, economics) and these happened to include Cambridge. Just like you said, he would have been happy to get an offer from any of them and he was fully aware of the gamble he was taking and was prepared to take a gap year if things didn't work out.