To think universities should state separate entry criteria for Indies?

[Wacamole]

DD who is on track for 3A*s at A’level, thought she’d give Oxbridge a go after being encouraged by her teachers. All very excited, doing super curriculars etc. Only just been told she doesn’t meet minimum entry criteria that would be expected from an Indy, which is straight 9s. She doesn’t have straight 9s, she has straight 8s (couple of nines), not only that, the course she wanted to apply for at Cambridge doesn’t require Maths at all, but school has advised they won’t even look at her if she doesn’t do Maths AND Further Maths. She is doing neither. Apparently an EPQ is also mandatory even though none of this is mentioned on Cambridge website.

All this second guessing, reading between the lines has been really confusing.
I have no issue with universities asking for higher entry criteria for students from indies for obvious reasons but wish they would be more transparent and state this on their ‘Entry requirements’ same way they state contextual offers?

[BasiliskStare]

I agree with @Needmoresleep for some subjects the likes of warwick are excellent. As are LSE ( which my son was turned down for - subsequently got a place at Oxford) I agree we have many good universities

DS's school did not encourage pupils to apply for Oxbridge if they did not have a good chance ( but of course would not stop them and would help ) , but some pupils applied to American universities or indeed those UK universities who had a better reputation for the subject

[BasiliskStare]

May I just put out there UCL fabulous

[IfYouCantSeeMyMirrors]

Following with a great deal of interest - and a touch of horror too, as I was at Cambridge myself, but doubt it's an option for my own children, if entrance requirements are now so high. Mine are at state schools anyway - but this thread is making me wonder if any of you know what constitutes an 'academically selective state school'? It's clear enough for Yr 7, obviously. But for sixth form, surely all state schools are academically selective? I mean, they simply won't let you in to do A-levels unless you get a certain grade at GCSE. Some have higher requirements than others, but they all have some requirements.

Where I live (rurally), many people finish school at 16 (because the school has no sixth form). They then often go to one of the grammars in a neighbouring county for sixth form. The grammars are selective at Yr 7 (11+); their requirements for A level are marginally above those of the sixth forms in the nearest city - but not extraordinarily high. They are therefore much, much easier to get into at sixth form than they are at Yr 7 (in fact, they're practically impossible to get into at Yr 7 from outside the county). But do they still count as 'selective state', because that's what they are further down the school?

[Wacamole]

@BasiliskStare Agreed. What’s against UCL and all other London Unis is the price of living there. The way in which accommodation is so spread out so there’s little of that ‘community feel’. London is a very marmite place to study but the uni itself I agree is fabulous.

[ofteninaspin]

Our local state sixth form one of the largest in the country. It recruits from local secondary schools and increasingly from indies including a well known public school. It is selective in that you need a minimum grade at GCSE in the subject you want to study at A Level. Poor performers at A Level are weeded out after one year. It identifies Oxbridge hopefuls early on in its cohort of 1500 and around 60 are successful - nearer 70 I think this year. A lot of advice and resources are available for Oxbridge applicants - far more than anecdotally in the local fee paying day schools.

[DahliaMacNamara]

I don't think so, @IfYouCantSeeMyMirrors. I think asking for certain grades to proceed to A level is pretty standard. It's certainly the case at my local comprehensive, which is literally the only game in town if you want to take A levels without spending 3 hours travelling every day. There are degrees of selectiveness, of course. Somewhere like Brampton Manor is very tough to get into, whereas most sixth forms just want to make sure students are up to the work. It's an interesting question.

[Needmoresleep]

Wacamole, I would disagree slightly. DS was at LSE and DD at Bristol. (She is currently spending a year at a different London University).

At LSE the University campus formed a centre for student social life. The library was open 24 hours, you would meet friends in the bars and cafes or attend the Friday night disco in the student centre. DS belonged to about 5 societies, including subject ones, who would meet on campus and then adjourn to China Town to eat. He also, somehow, was able to join an Imperial sports society with a friend who studied there, and use their facilities. Most halls are within walking distance and he then rented an ex-council flat near Coram fields. Others lived further out, but public transport in London is good and cheap. We live in central London but we and DS felt it important that he had a first year in halls. After this many of his London friends chose to live at home, to save money, but also because they could still have a full university life. DS was offered a room in an established flat with good friends, so only returned home during his Masters year. Even then he spent 12 hours a day on campus or nearby, seven days a week, studying and socialising.

Bristol was very different. The main set of halls is some way from the University and students are advised not to walk home at night. Social life seemed focussed on ‘flats’ and on commercial facilities in the city (Lizard Lounge, Wetherspoons etc). Nothing much appears to happen on campus at night and the Student Union building is some way distant and seemingly only used by student politicians and thespians. DD played sport but did not seem tempted by anything else and she suggested this was not uncommon. She did not bond with her first year flatmates (understatement) but made good friends through her course and sport.

Two experiences only, but I don’t think DS missed out. In particular involvement in an active subject society allowed him to meet friends with similar academic interests from different years, and to engage in a different way with academics. Enormously helpful when he first started thinking about post grad options. The same was true of his friend at Imperial who went on to chair a society in a specific research area which was supported by a senior academic.

Bristol obviously has subject societies, and LSE has social ones (the pre-pre-pre-pres for the annual athletic soc social apparently start at 9.00am) but London Universities, especially the specialist ones like Imperial and LSE, seem to suit those with a strongly focussed interest in their subject. UCL then falls in the middle offering a research rich environment as well as a full range of subjects.

[chopc]

My son attends an Indie and I can't fault the help and resources given to Oxbridge applicants? Did it make him successful? No. He has 8x9; 8, 2A star at GCSE, predicted 3A star and A at AL. Got over 92% in his Uni subject at GCSE (Humanities subject). Didn't do EPQ as didn't think it would add to his application. Feedback from Cambridge- he has had a good interview. Yet we don't know why he was unsuccessful. Has offers from UCL, LSE, Durham and Leeds.

Looking back at it, his college states some desirable subjects - given he should needs two more he has maths and economics (if interested in economic history). Would be have had a better change if he swapped Music to English Lit? Doubt it

If your student meets the minimum entry requirements, there are a whole heap of other factors that come into play when a decision to make an offer is made. Contrary to what anyone says, I don't think anyone on this forum knows what exactly they are.

DC should definitely have a go but be warned it is a long and emotional process and however un invested you want to team in, you wouldn't be able to help getting drawn in.

Good luck to all future applicants!

[chopc]

Echo what @Needmoresleep says about London Unis. I went to UCL and there was a lot going on in Campus where we spent a large amount of time and managed to live walking distance for all my years. In fact students from all over London used to come to the infamous UCL cocktail nights

[NiamCinnOir]

@IfYouCantSeeMyMirrors My dc go to a comprehensive school with its own sixth form. To do maths, physics and a couple of other subjects at A level, you need a minimum of a 5 at GCSE, so it’s academically selective, but not very. The same is true of the other comprehensives in the town, but likely to be very different for grammar and private schools. It puzzles me a bit that Oxford publish detailed admissions statistics comparing students by sex, place of residence, ethnicity etc. but don’t distinguish beyond ‘state’ and ‘independent’ school. There are huge variations in both categories, I imagine.

[NiamCinnOir]

I also agree with @chopc that an Oxbridge application is long and fairly emotional and that high grades at GCSE are no guarantee of success. I was fairly naive about this until a few months ago. Dd has an offer for Oxford, but her GCSE grades are nowhere near as good as @chopc’s ds, although they were in the top 5% for her school. She did two admissions tests and got very high marks in one and just above average in the other. One key difference is likely to be the competitiveness of the course. Last year there were around 3 applicants per place on her course, whereas for Economics & Management there were around 17.

[Needmoresleep]

Nah chopc, the LSE Saucy Friday night disco is the place. (Named after the Saw Swee Hock student centre.)

[Ellmau]

Is is something like Land Economy where maths is described as useful but not required? If so, maybe what the school is thinking is that if most applicants offer maths and FM, without maths she may be a less strong applicant and would have to be stronger in other aspects of her application to get an offer, and her GCSE profile is not one of the strongest at the school? Or code for their not being fully supportive of her in the reference. Are any of her classmates also applying for the subject in question at Cambridge?

Anyway, whichever subject is is there should be FoI reports around giving the subject/grade profile of successful applicants in previous years. Try googling Cambridge admissions statistics SUBJECT and see what comes up.

[chopc]

@NiamCinnOir many congratulations to your DD!

[mids2019]

Sounds like the school advice may not be entirely accurate.....However expectation management is not necessarily a bad thing.


With increasing number of excellent applicants with great results there will be very fine margins in judging Oxbridge applicants and the dead cert mentality seems to be in the wane (if there ever was one).

I think that increasingly other universities are seen in the same light as Oxbridge by recruiters and Oxford and Cambridge are two members of an elite set of institutions.

[crosstalk]

Musmerian I was lying about my age! I took O levels in 1968. There were if I remember a number of grades from 1 (top) to ?6? So for clarity the older girl in question got 1s throughout at O and As throughout at A level and two As in whatever the scholarship level was called - S Level?. She would also have done the Oxbridge entrance papers in what was then the Lower Seventh and then was called for interview. Her grades were better than mine but my overall point is that with her interest in languages (but not literature) she did better not going to the Oxbridge of her time. And as other PPs have said there are a large number of excellent universities in the UK so a bit of research including visiting student message boards is a great way to find a great degree course and a university you'll enjoy.

[CinnamonJellyBeans]

I agree with @DahliaMacNamara:

They can only give it their best shot. Forget about the number of 8s and 9s for a bit, and focus on whether they can demonstrate being a bit special at the subject they're applying for. Most applicants will have a damn good set of GCSEs as well as stellar predicted A levels. You can't really count on those to make you stand out.

I'd suggest going for the "be really special at your subject" and being able to provide tangible evidence for this on your PS.

Your DD's school is giving you bad advice.

I believe that Oxbridge outreach and the well-publicised success of schools like Brampton Academy have contributed to more state school students with 8/9s and A/A* predictions applying. There's a lot of smart poor people out there and the secret is out: Oxbridge wants you. The floodgates have opened and i for one, am delighted. Eat the rich

[Frequentflier]

I have been told, even at overseas schools, that 3 hard subjects should be taken at GCSE.

[Frequentflier]

I meant to put " hard" in quotes. I mean traditional subjects. Have also been told that FM is needed for engineering of any kind and economics degrees.

[mids2019]

With increasing numbers of Oxbridge applicants all with great grades does this means offers become even more of a lottery?

The original poster's child's grade predictions were pretty exemplary and if you still only have a 20% chance of entry then there does seem to be an element of luck in all this.

Anyway, those turned away from Oxbridge will I am sure do as equally well else where at universities that take in undergraduates of similar calibre.

[Frequentflier]

God I clearly need coffee. I meant 3 traditional subjects at A levels. Sorry. No one has mentioned an EPQ though.

[Aethelthryth]

Son at Cambridge, following time at a smart independent school. GCSEs: 2xA*, 2A, 3B, 3C and 1G.
A levels: 2xA*, 2xA plus an A grade EPQ.

Your daughter's school is giving poor advice. There is a lot of detail on the Cambridge website.

[RedGoldAndGreene]

I think that the advice from school is suspect.

My dd has 7-9 at GCSE and predicted 2A*1A and was told that school would support an Oxbridge application if she wanted. I would contact the admissions person but it's not unreasonable to take their admissions requirement at face value imo. If they wanted maths and further maths then they'd say that.

[ClarasZoo]

[quote chopc]@LetsSplashMummy no school publishes data about the number of Oxbridge applicants- that's a silly thing to say [/quote]
If you look at the Cambridge page on application statistics you can see the number of applicants for each school/sixth form (Ucas centre) the number of offers and the number accepted. So all schools publish their data about Cambridge applicants. Presume Oxford the same, but I have not looked. The last cycle on it at the moment is 2019.

[ClarasZoo]

For example, the Portsmouth Grammar School (indie) - 15 applications to Cambridge in 2019, less than 3 offer, less than 3 acceptances. It's very interesting to google the local schools!