To think universities should state separate entry criteria for Indies?

[Wacamole]

DD who is on track for 3A*s at A’level, thought she’d give Oxbridge a go after being encouraged by her teachers. All very excited, doing super curriculars etc. Only just been told she doesn’t meet minimum entry criteria that would be expected from an Indy, which is straight 9s. She doesn’t have straight 9s, she has straight 8s (couple of nines), not only that, the course she wanted to apply for at Cambridge doesn’t require Maths at all, but school has advised they won’t even look at her if she doesn’t do Maths AND Further Maths. She is doing neither. Apparently an EPQ is also mandatory even though none of this is mentioned on Cambridge website.

All this second guessing, reading between the lines has been really confusing.
I have no issue with universities asking for higher entry criteria for students from indies for obvious reasons but wish they would be more transparent and state this on their ‘Entry requirements’ same way they state contextual offers?

I guess I mean 'breadth' isn't the best for everyone Irma and it doesn't suit all brains. I went to school in Scotland which is often praised for the breadth of its system. I had to vociferously argue not to do higher maths (I won!) because I knew I would get a crap result and that it would threaten my other grades. I was 'allowed' to do history instead (they set up a special maths refusenik group!) and had to keep a science (biology). It was only when I got to doing three subjects that I really soared. Up to that pint my (very academically snooty) school didn't view me as hot stuff. They were pleased for me when I chose to apply to Oxford but didn't actively support us. (I bombed the interview...). I did go on to egt the highest English result in Scotland that year (still got the letter!) but, because I was rubbish at maths, I think my school had never really pushed me forward.

Our system more and more seems to prioritise breadth and view that as intelligence. This is why some students are absolutely crucifying themselves at revision time for GCSEs because they feel they have to be brilliant at everything.

Piggy on the music comment above it was similar at my sons' school. Both my sons had music scholarships. The teacher was dire and I think sacked or in some way forced out after their GCSE music. Not a single boy (in a fee paying private school with lots of pupils with grade 8 music, music theory exams passed etc)( including my two sons got an A star. Mine got A. The one of mine who did music AS then had a really good new head of music for sixth form so all was well but I agree in private and state schools you can have a problem with a subject so in practice exams can be a bit of a lottery although on the whole those who do well in them or do well all year tend to get the better results so I think over all it tends to come out all right in the wash in a general sense and will be better once we get back to real exams.

On leavers' destinations as a parent even of a 2 year old choosing a 5+ private school the destinations of leavers was just about the only thing that counted to me -either at 11 or 13 do they go to very hard to get into schools or at 18 do they go to very good universities as in effect I buy a peer group when I pay fees and I want those ambitious next steps of their fellow classmates to rub off on my lot.

So here are lists of leavers;' destinations for my daughter's school www.nlcs.org.uk/senior-school-sixth-form/university-destinations and here for a reasonably local state school www.watfordgrammarschoolforgirls.org.uk/sixth-form/university-applications-and-destinations/

I think the thrust of help for increasing social mobility must be outside schools but allied to them. Focus should be on possible high achievers but many state comps would hate this and think it unfair. They would support a sporty kid to try for X united though.

University attended and subject is vital. Women often earn less than men with similar degrees. Women can choose degrees with lower earnings potential.

I can see marketing by post 92 universities and ex polys can be strong in a city. They definitely recruit DC who could have gone elsewhere. Changing the destinations of bright students is complicated though and schools/agencies need to counter string marketing where it influences students unduly. Of course other factors do come into play.

In answer to an earlier question: the nearest I got to Oxford was watching Oxford United and shopping. I was definitely in the too thick bracket. My Dsis with AAA was also not considered good enough. Having seen this attitude in my generation, I wasn’t going to see my DD1 sidelined by her school as she wasn’t considered good enough by them either. I really don’t see why schools cannot embrace the idea that some pupils would benefit from support.

They would support a sporty kid to try for X united though.

Actually, in my experience, pretty obstructive about that too because it threatens results!! The boy I taught who now plays for England was not given much support.

Watford Grammar for girls is selective. Its not a comprehensive. It’s hardly a back number. NLCS is one of the highest achieving schools in the uk. Even so, they are not comparable so it’s difficult to see the point being made. Both are within affluent Home Counties areas but the differences are possibly explained by the status of the parents at NLCS. It’s very different from any school in Watford.

@Xenia worth pointing out that Watford Grammar despite its name is mainly non-selective. I think only about a quarter of their places is selective. Name is an overhang from when it was previously a grammar.

• quarter of their places ARE - just read it back as you all think "she clearly didn't go to 'grammar' school!"

Out of interest, how would a student who actively chose say NTU be treated at that school?

DH teaches in a selective private school and their destinations are lot more mixed than that : in fact, broadly similar to the destinations of my school, with a few more going to London unis (cost is prohibitive for most from my school) and Oxbridge but otherwise a mix of RG/ non RG and unis which are geographically relatively convenient. (so, in my case anything on or near the M1/M6 is targeted). Unis like NTU, Lincoln, SHU are popular at both schools.

Sorry @Xenia cross post. I don't live near the school, just have a friend lives over there, but I thought it was only partially selective with most of the kids local catchment and non-selective?

Just looked at the Watford Grammar destinations : they look really good to me? Varied subjects and destinations. I can see ambition and aspiration.

Your average state school doesn't have destinations on its website.

Slight derail, but what’s the deal with music teachers?! I can’t tell you how bad dd’s was. For a start, she couldn’t read music! Well, she could read the treble clef but not the bass, nor did she know any music theory. In fact she told dd and the GCSE class that she wouldn’t be bothering to teach them to read music or any music theory as that part of the GCSE was only a few marks and just to have a guess. Dd scooted home to tell me that! It seems a disgrace that in five years of music teaching pupils had not been taught a note. Dd and some others were ok as they learned instruments out of school, but it was a disservice to the others, and a complete waste of time for all of them.

I wonder sometimes if some of them view teaching as a 'sideline'. In DS's case this teacher was sacked because of something outside of school (due to be struck off ). He, however, was a talented musician. On the whole I have been in awe of how musical DS's music teachers are : playing multiple instruments and doing lots of extra stuff. DS got lots of opportunity via school music. But, other stuff aside, his ex teacher was disorganised, often absent, unfocused - bit of a cliché.

Most teachers view hobbies as a sideline. The ones I know who are very sporty, musical, mountain climbers or writing education books often end up leaving because teaching gets in the way.

Should have made DS do French . Hindsight is a marvellous thing.

My kids school has amazing music teachers. Mine are gone deaf but there is an orchestra, choirs, chamber groups (I have no idea what these are) and they put on various concerts normally. No idea why they got good teachers.
Neither my school or my kids put destinations on their websites. Not sure many state schools do - would take ages to type in for the 6th form college DD went too as 1,800 students.
Most of our students want to get away from London as it's too expensive so loads head up north/midlands as so much cheaper for rent. They couldn't afford to choose London Unis as loan doesn't cover costs.

Tone deaf

@Xenia

The grammar school results would probably reflect my old school

The other school results look fantastic with a high weighting to Oxbridge (I am kind of guessing UCL was a second choice for a few ).

Do schools like this try and ensure their Oxbridge successes are consistent?

In these days of outreach will it be the case fewer in future make it?

There are two grammars in Watford - boys and girls. They both select 25% and 10% for specialist places. So 65% are community. However, that means their "tail" of less academic DC is likely to be smaller than the average comp and will reflect in their leavers' destinations. There are plenty of other alternatives in the area too if people can pay. It is not far to Berkhamsted School, Royal Masonic and Queenswood to name a handful. Others for the boys. So the middle ground and bright DC can go elsewhere. Even to NLCC.

NLCS is a top, top, top peforming school. It is one of the best. It is close to St Pauls and Wycombe Abbey in prestige. It is highly selective.

@IrmaFayLear

Slight derail, but what’s the deal with music teachers?! I can’t tell you how bad dd’s was. For a start, she couldn’t read music! Well, she could read the treble clef but not the bass, nor did she know any music theory. In fact she told dd and the GCSE class that she wouldn’t be bothering to teach them to read music or any music theory as that part of the GCSE was only a few marks and just to have a guess. Dd scooted home to tell me that! It seems a disgrace that in five years of music teaching pupils had not been taught a note. Dd and some others were ok as they learned instruments out of school, but it was a disservice to the others, and a complete waste of time for all of them.

Ours was utterly wonderful. She turned a big-standard comp into a place of bliss for the musically minded child (and concerts a parent would actually want to go to).

When she finally retired, a new junior music teacher arrived in time for the Christmas concert and was practically weeping with enthusiasm about how keen the children were. Hope her legacy lasts.

Just as an aside on music teaching. Did anyone catch the story about Gary Barlow receiving a tweet from a school brass band saying 'Please Gary, will you sing with us?'

GB got in touch with the music teacher and recorded himself singing to their backing. The teacher then had a zoom band practice and said the the band, 'Oh, by the way, I have had a reply from Gary Barlow' then pressed play.... Enjoy!!

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/family-kids-news/school-band-ecstatic-after-surprise-20183497

(Well done to GB, he probably made these young people's day, month, year etc... and because of him many will become musicians. It is great when high profile people pay it forward).

@FlyingSquid the music dept at my DC's lack lustre comp was also brilliant. In fact we chose the school on that basis. A real beacon of excellence. Although neither child did A level music they continued to be involved in the dept in sixth form. It was an oasis away from the horrid ness elsewhere and their jazz orchestra even won a National contest.

OMG - That has made me well up @Olympicfan.

Chapeau Mr Barlow.

The Y10 lad they interviewed on Radio 5 live said he was going to put it on his CV.... backing instrumentalist for Gary Barlow!

I have been working and then we have a family wedding soon too so it's busy (probably on day of royal funeral now .,..) anyway I posted NLCS destinations as my daughter went there and Watford "grammar" which is indeed not really a grammar school but is a state school - as they gave destinations of leavers whereas presumably schools who get people into very poor universities seem to choose not to give destinations of leavers. Both those schools are reasonably near where I live in the sense children travel as they do across London to all kinds of schools.

Here is another near us - where mmy sons I suppose might have gone - we are Catholics www.stdoms.ac.uk/page/?title=Student+Destinations+2020&pid=84

Let us look up the school near my parents' house www.jesmondparkacademy.org.uk/ Can't see desinations. It seems to be an academy these days. My sibling's old school does although not in much detail www.rgshw.com/page/?title=Destination+of+Leavers&pid=141 (private school then and now - it was a direct grant school before the sibling went there, they were abolished and it went fully private.

There is no such thing as a bad/poor university. When I recruit I don’t even know which Uni the applicants went to as we interview blind.
When we selected schools for our DT’s we looked for a local school, co-Ed, good all round education and excellent sports facilities. We never looked at where former pupils went to Uni. Who knows whether your DC’s will want to/be academic enough to go to Uni.

Very poor universities ? Oh xenia...

So, here you are : destinations for a reasonably high achieving state school (destinations are a bit influenced by geographical location)

RHUL
UWL
Loughborough x 3
Southampton x2
Univ Creative Arts
Gloucestershire 2
Lincoln 10
Hull 2
Cardiff
Birmingham City 2
Sheffield 2
Hertfordshire 4
Sheffield Hallam 4
LMU
Huddersfield
Birmingham 5
Durham
Bristol
Law
NTU 10
Bournemouth 3
Leeds 3
Brighton 4
UWE
Falmouth
Warwick 3
Nottingham 10
Portsmouth 3
Coventry
NUA 3
Northampton 2
Reading 2
UEA 4
Middlesex 3
DMU 3
York
Exeter
Kent 4
Plymouth
Bath Spa
Leicester 2
Winchester
Liverpool 3
LJMU
Roehampton
Canterbury Christ Church
UCLAN
Sussex 2
Cambridge 2
Lancaster
Newcastle
Solent
MMU
UAL
Manchester
Oxford

Some of the 'very poor unis' were offering specialisms like jewellery design, typography, speech therapy, sports marketing , midwifery, magazine design and so on.

I think this is a pretty good spread to be honest.