To think universities should state separate entry criteria for Indies?

[Wacamole]

DD who is on track for 3A*s at A’level, thought she’d give Oxbridge a go after being encouraged by her teachers. All very excited, doing super curriculars etc. Only just been told she doesn’t meet minimum entry criteria that would be expected from an Indy, which is straight 9s. She doesn’t have straight 9s, she has straight 8s (couple of nines), not only that, the course she wanted to apply for at Cambridge doesn’t require Maths at all, but school has advised they won’t even look at her if she doesn’t do Maths AND Further Maths. She is doing neither. Apparently an EPQ is also mandatory even though none of this is mentioned on Cambridge website.

All this second guessing, reading between the lines has been really confusing.
I have no issue with universities asking for higher entry criteria for students from indies for obvious reasons but wish they would be more transparent and state this on their ‘Entry requirements’ same way they state contextual offers?

@goodbyestranger low pupil expectation from teachers is a well-recognised problem by sociologists, but not in schools.

Teacher make limiting assumptions about pupils, which pervades every aspect of their school experience. Maybe that was some of the rationale behind parachuting high achieving graduates from RG unis into schools on the Teach-First scheme.

Some of these assumptions about for their charges may well stem from the working class backgrounds of many teachers. But TBF with their massive workload, it's asking a bit too much for them to offer an ambitious and personalised career path for each child.

So, no mention of Oxbridge to DD1 at any time from any of her teachers.

@mids2019 such a thing could be set up as a consortium between schools, but you'd have to be careful to stop the middle class parents monopolising the resources or trying to take over (or foist their kids onto the scheme)

I’m not entirely sure it should be down to teachers. There are others who have the knowledge and expertise. It needs organisation and enthusiasm.

To be fair, I think quite a few comprehensives have bright DC. They are the grammar school stream in those schools so why should they not be medics or Oxbridge bound? Does everyone truly think all comps have low achieving DC in them accords the board?

CJB it's certainly recognised by some schools. I would say it was an integral part of a teacher's job to raise the aspirations of all academically able kids, not too much to ask. What concerns me is the answers given to questions about raising aspiration that are always asked when recruiting teachers at superselectives. And these are the shortlisted applicants for jobs!

mumsneedwine I'm a bit mean with compliments but the model you describe sounds spot on and the way that you say you can teach beyond the syllabus to the brightest while supporting and teaching the less able is exactly what all teachers should do. The issue is that while your own school sounds well led and well staffed, it just isn't representative. If it was, there might be no problem.

Comps obviously have very, very bright kids in them Percy. The question is about identifying those kids, giving them the teaching they need, and making sure they don't settle for less than they're capable of achieving. In short, give them the choices for the future which should be theirs, uncapped by a poor education.

Yes. I know but it should not be a surprise when well supported bright DC do well in a comp. It should be the norm. I agree it is not.

In the first year of Grade 9s in 2018 our local comp got a single grade 9 Percy, across the whole of Y11.

@CinnamonJellyBeans

I disagree. A grade 6 is a modest grade for most brains to attain and the very bare minimum we'd expect in this house. DD2 is a real child. Very unacademic. I still remember the incredulity on her face when she realised that the chant "1, 2, 3, 4, 5 " actually related to a method she could use to keep track of the sweets I was putting into and taking out of her hand. Stopped reading books in year 9. Went to a bogstandard comp. Spends her life on tik tok or on the phone. Lots of socialising. Ordinary teenager. Got mostly 7s and 8s. One 9 and one 5. Very little effort. Good attendance, sat through lessons, did just enough homework to get the teachers off her back.

You are being ridiculous and very rude. Your child must have been v bright to get those marks. I feel quite angry at your comments.

@CinnamonJellyBeans

I think there are some comps (as mentioned above) that have very good set ups for raising aspiration....but are these the exceptions to the rule?

I like the idea of more RG/Oxbridge teachers as I think they can directly relate to these institutions. The difficulty is getting grads from these unis to teach . in sometimes difficult environments (some socially minded may). It seems private schools do seem to have a majority of RG grads.

I fear that some may take an attitude of 'I went to x university and if it was good enough for me it's good enough for them'. Additionally if a school is creating an inclusive environment then they may not want it to be seen that they are ranking some pupils higher than others. I find it difficult to get class positions for instance for my children (though some indication of standard is given)

And incidentally what would you have done if she had got all less than 6 for everything. What punishment would you have given out. Nobber.

Bit bemused as to why you want to get class positions for your children?

@Luzina

Bit bemused as to why you want to get class positions for your children?

Because they want to know that their child is number one 😂. Silliness.

Ha! Of course

@Luzina

In my day (long time ago) you were given a position in the class for different subjects. You would immediately see where you were in the cohort.

It seems now relative positions are not given but you are given an indication of standard. (No more 'top of the class (or bottom)').

This may be a modern method of feedback and I can see the motivation for doing this but I do wonder whether position in a cohort would be valuable especially if significant proportions of the cohort achieve the same indicative standard.

It seems (and maybe this is a good thing?) that we very much vear away from the language of competition (at least academically) in schools but then we talk of competitive Oxbridge entrance, 'winning' course places etc.

I am not a teacher but I wonder if this is the way of things today?

I assume they want to know if their DC is average or above average, as judged by someone objective. If their DC is top then whether they are above the national average or not will depend on the ability of the cohort. I suspect this might be why Oxbridge appears to be interested in where an applicant in a selective school sits within a cohort as opposed to an applicant from mumsneedwine's comprehensive school where, as she says, the cohorts are genuinely very mixed ability.

Or rather, schools such as mumsneedwine's school.

@Viciouslybashed

Ha!

Well mine aren't .....

But we do quite happily like our children to be number 1 in athletics or to be too striker in a football team and I think culturally we are more open about celebrating athletic success than academic.

If a comp is in the same catchment as a grammar school, it is hardly surprising to note that fewer students at the comp achieve 9s at GCSE compared with the selective grammar school.

Grade 6 is really really not that high. A 4-5 is the equivalent of the old GCE grade C. back in the day, of you didn't get a C, you had failed.

So, if a five is a "pass" and above that passing grade, there are four more possible grades: 6, 7, 8, 9, I do not see what is wrong with me (and her) setting the bar at a 6, which is only one grade higher than "pass". She goes to school every day, gets taught by qualified professionals, some of whom were brilliant and go above and beyond.. I have not paid enough taxes to cover my kids' educations. It is free and it's a good service and they're going to use it wisely and make the best of this opportunity.

If she had PP/SEN/mental health issues or other issues, we might not expect 6's, but who knows?

Curious....if you do have grammar schools in your area do outreach groups target the non-grammar schools. Would you wish for more students at the non grammar to go to Oxbridge and other elite universities? How does this square with the initial selectvity?

Yes I thought that would be coming ofteninaspin but couldn't be bothered to pre-empt it. Our school is a superselective so has almost no impact on the intake of local comps (there are three very local to the school, and around fifteen to twenty in the realistic travel area). Moreover, the school to which I'm referring has plenty of families with some DC at the grammar and others at the comp, so very much shared background, shared expectations, same level of affluence or otherwise. I agree that is some situations the grammar might grab all the brighter kids, but that's no so for our school with a fifty mile radius as the 'catchment'.

*not so

@CinnamonJellyBeans

Grade 6 is really really not that high. A 4-5 is the equivalent of the old GCE grade C. back in the day, of you didn't get a C, you had failed.

So, if a five is a "pass" and above that passing grade, there are four more possible grades: 6, 7, 8, 9, I do not see what is wrong with me (and her) setting the bar at a 6, which is only one grade higher than "pass". She goes to school every day, gets taught by qualified professionals, some of whom were brilliant and go above and beyond.. I have not paid enough taxes to cover my kids' educations. It is free and it's a good service and they're going to use it wisely and make the best of this opportunity.

If she had PP/SEN/mental health issues or other issues, we might not expect 6's, but who knows?

It was your manner when you said that pissed me off. Perhaps I have read your tone as sneery.

mids2019 the DC being targeted are the primary aged DC who are both academically able and yet socially disadvantaged. That group for various reasons have historically been application averse and many of their HTs at primaries throughout the travel area have been anti grammar, so not much help forthcoming in singling out these DC for additional help. That said, there's heaps of shared practice within the grammar school network but the simple answer is that what's being looked at is helping young, bright, disadvantaged kids get on the best ladder for a top academic outcome. The focus isn't at the moment on helping DC who missed out at the 11+ stage. Capacity is stretched as it is.

I apologise if I came across as sneery.