To think universities should state separate entry criteria for Indies?

[Wacamole]

DD who is on track for 3A*s at A’level, thought she’d give Oxbridge a go after being encouraged by her teachers. All very excited, doing super curriculars etc. Only just been told she doesn’t meet minimum entry criteria that would be expected from an Indy, which is straight 9s. She doesn’t have straight 9s, she has straight 8s (couple of nines), not only that, the course she wanted to apply for at Cambridge doesn’t require Maths at all, but school has advised they won’t even look at her if she doesn’t do Maths AND Further Maths. She is doing neither. Apparently an EPQ is also mandatory even though none of this is mentioned on Cambridge website.

All this second guessing, reading between the lines has been really confusing.
I have no issue with universities asking for higher entry criteria for students from indies for obvious reasons but wish they would be more transparent and state this on their ‘Entry requirements’ same way they state contextual offers?

In a way, if will make little difference on a national scale if grammar schools are doing x,y,z to widen participation as there’s only 160 grammars in the U.K. and also they’re generally clustered in particular areas, so irrelevant to the vast majority. As for independents, these vary massively and anyway, only an exceptional few will get those bursaries where they are on offer. Even where they do, nothing can compensate for the nightmare scenarios some of these students experience at home and no amount of educational excellence or support can really compensate for this.

I don’t know what it’s like in other parts of the U.K, but in this part of London “those who can” do one of several things.., They suddenly discover devout Catholicism when the child is about one in order to get them into certain faith schools such as the London Oratory etc. Or they pay for expensive preps and get hysterical about entry to St Paul’s and the usual suspects. Or they spend the equivalent of school fees in stamp duty on a house in the catchment of an excellent state primary and then thousands more in intensive tutoring from about year 4 onwards. Or they decide to hell with it and move out. For those who do none of the above, it’s a postcode lottery and even if, by a stroke of luck, you live in the catchment of a good state school, there’s no guarantee you’ll get in. My daughter was allocated a school at the total opposite end of the borough and would have passed about 7 other schools on the bus to get there. I’m sure other countries don’t have all this convoluted inequality when it comes to education. We have some German friends who couldn’t believe it when they arrived in London. They just said, in Germany, everyone goes to their local school and everyone gets the same education. Then unis are pretty much the same and there’s no hierarchies really, so you just go to your local one.

Some of my son's private school friends left aged 16 for various London state schools including special maths things and some others which go pretty well. in fact my sons' private school which had 100% Oxbridge failure rate in their year (and my sons didn't try) do worse than many London state schools but of course are never going to be contextualised. I suppose life is just very unfair a lot of time for lots of people and you just have to do the best you can and work around it all and learn from failures. lots of things I have done have failed but it all worked out okay in the end, not least because I got a good education and also did a lot of self educating, read a lot of books etc as did my grandfather in Bishop Auckland, youngest of 10, who had to leave school aged 12 in the 1890s due, we think, to TB - the covid 19 of its day.

quest1on you can belittle the attempts of grammar school heads as much as you like. The point is one of principle. Also if no one did anything because numbers are small on a national scale, that simply leads to total inaction. In addition, this is about showing what particular models can do - probably no bad idea given how lousy are educational system has become generally, for those not in a position to pay.

Haha our not are :)

The grammar system sounds as if it is doing more especially with outreach to primary.

We used prep for first dc and state primary for second, the drivers couldn’t be more different. Yes there was extra work (tg) for top banding dc but there’s no indication to any dc or parents that 11plus is a factor in state or private sector.

It wasn’t an issue in the end here but maybe because we’d seen the process with first so had an idea. We didn’t do tutoring past a couple of marking sessions but at least knew about application process.

Reading this thread I’m still non the wiser whether a clever child is better doing private secondary or state.

Obviously depends on specific schools too.

questIon we’ve lived in Germany. In one of the cities with.....an elite university. Your friends have given you a version of the school system in Germany where they were probably talking about state v independent rather than different school types. Germany has an excellent school system but it is not comprehensive.

Nor is the French system. Both rely on selection at quite an early age before embarking on quite different paths. .

I’m not belittling anything. Any efforts are laudable, of course. But the fact remains, the vast majority don’t live in grammar areas and the vast majority can’t pay for independent schools either.

I'm afraid your DD's school couldn't be more wrong. My DS attends a high-performing Indy and received an Oxford offer with predicted AAA (no Maths or STEM subjects at all) and only three 9s, two 8s, five 7s and a 4 at GCSE. He did get an A for his EPQ but that is not required, or even considered, except for a talking point at the interview stage.

Agree about French system. I studied at a French Grande Ecole. My French peers had been on that track pretty much since their parents' choice of primary.

Sorry, was marking year 13 assessments. Bit of a job this Easter.
We have between 200-300 in each year in 6th form and these will be doing a mixture of A levels and BTECs. The 900 did refer to the large 6th colleges where lots round here go to, including my own DD. She got 3A stars but would probably have been ranked somewhere in the 100s 🤷‍♀️.
Out of the Oxbridge offers this year 3 are Pupil Premium, 4 medics (much lower offers given here and 2 onto foundation due to backgrounds) and 1 vet. We have about 15% PP I think, although it varies massively every year. Transient community within catchment.
When we started this scheme about 7 years ago we got 3-4 into Oxbridge and one of two medics. We knew we should be aiming higher so asked the local, very expensive and exclusive private school what they did and quite blatantly copied the support they gave. We have built on this over the years and they now use some of our resources because the outreach stuff is amazing. We have fostered relationships with our link colleges and I personally have learned so much along the way. I've met some amazing people who have mentored our kids (not just for Unis). Not saying it's easy as it is not, it's time consuming and can be emotionally draining at times. But it's so so rewarding.
Not sure I've ever heard a teacher say which Uni doesn't matter - I have heard them say it doesn't have to be Oxbridge (that might be me 😊).
And not far from Surrey - bit nearer into London. 1960s built monstrosity. But I like it.

With grammar school education being unavailable in a lot of regions how do comprehensives cope with the potentially large range in intellectual ability?

Is setting routinely used and is this effective? Can teachers gauge their teaching to the Oxford candidates and those that a few decent GCSEs would improve their life chances?

Without grammar (and independent schools) you may have a diverse range of students to cater to. I was slightly concerned about teaching that may not recognise potential or indeed those that feel it is not their prime goal to assist high acheivers. Is there any element of teaching to an average?

Is it the case that state non-selective teachers tend to look at ultimate university destinations as similar to their own?

@adriah72

I'm afraid your DD's school couldn't be more wrong. My DS attends a high-performing Indy and received an Oxford offer with predicted AAA (no Maths or STEM subjects at all) and only three 9s, two 8s, five 7s and a 4 at GCSE. He did get an A for his EPQ but that is not required, or even considered, except for a talking point at the interview stage.

Was that pre pandemic?

@mumsneedwine

Sounds like the sort of school which would be attractive.

Did you seek extra funding for this model? How do teachers talk about RG/Oxbridge at school? Is university choice left to careers advisers or do teachers take an active interest? I can see if a pupil has a particular career in mind a career adviser would be sensible but when it comes to general degree advise do teachers get involved (and at what stage)?

With grammar school education being unavailable in a lot of regions how do comprehensives cope with the potentially large range in intellectual ability?

Everyone I know who went to Oxford/Cambridge, or are there now, bar a couple, all went to comprehensives. I personally don’t know anyone who went to a grammar school. That’s just the social circles I mix in, I suppose. The inner city comprehensive my DC attended has several go off to Oxford or Cambridge every year. Even back in my day, I went to a Northern comprehensive, and a small handful went every year. People going off to Edinburgh, St Andrews, Durham, UCL etc was also completely standard. We didn’t realise these were elite universities that were considered hard to get into.

@mids2019 yes to most of that ! Yes setting is used, yes we can teach very academically weak kids as well as real geniuses (have seen a few). That's what makes it fun.
As to destinations, we give advice and take them to the massive UCAS days attended by most good Unis. We provide talks from various Unis and invite people in to tell the students about their stories. We have an EPQ group and an Achieving High group - anyone can come (but we make it very clear what they need to do to get into Oxbridge so some decide they don't want to bother). We run a Medics group (including vets and dentists) to discuss what they need, help with work experience and entrance exams - although I'm as much use as a chocolate teapot on UCAT so tell them to use Medify (free if PP).
It's not just me - all 6th form tutors get involved. Who have a range of backgrounds and Unis (including Oxbridge). I'm sure we miss a few who could apply but are too scared but we also have some who don't like the courses offered so apply elsewhere. On lad last year was a complete computer genius and was heavily into AI so wanted a Uni that focussed on that. He got 4 A* and is now working for google who are paying for his degree at Imperial I think.

Only 15%pp sounds low certainly for London. I assume quite a good proportion of those who got Oxbridge offers will be middle class of a similar economic profile to those at Grammars or private schools, with the means to support their DCs education in either practical or financial ways.

It actually sounds a lot like the school my mother used to teach in, with a traveller community and effectively Surrey but still with London weighting.

@mids2019 we use PP funding to get extra for those students but the rest is run by the teachers so no cost at all. Unis send visitors in if you ask so no cost for that and we use ex pupils, parents and any poor person who steps into school as mentors. I even blagged the last Ofsted inspector as they were ex civil service and quite nice.
It takes time as mostly everything is after school or if I can timetable it during breaks.
All teachers can teach all abilities, it's just that some prefer top sets and some don't. I personally always take bottom set for GCSE.

@Needmoresleep could well be the same. We have many students who are more than able to pay for private school but decided our school was good enough. We have a majority who are normal kids, live in a semi and both parents work full time. And we have some who live in social housing. I'd say from the Oxbridge lot the majority are from the middle group (I am basing this on seeing the kitchens via remote parents evenings).
We are not the only comp who do all this - lots now do. This is why more state students are getting offers I suppose, knowing how the system works and a bit of support in the right place.
Back to marking.

@mumneedswine

From what you say it would that a grammar school system wouldn't be a necessity in terms of teaching to different abilities.

I have to say that the ethos you describe does match that of private schools where oxbridge/medicine/RG entrance does seem to be part of the culture.

As a matter of interest would you describe any of your 'elite ' university applicants as disadvantaged? We're the high achievers obvious from entry into the school?

What about schools who do not specifically identify anyone? Where all DC decide they will not bother? That is why there are such big discrepancies in who goes where. It is definitely a culture thing.

@mumsneedwine your school sounds great and that's an impressive result for med school applications this year. It's probably similar stats to my DS's selective grammar. You have been so positive and helpful on this year's (anxious!) medics thread and I'm sure you have the same positive impact in your school.

It would be very interesting to know what percentage of state school kids who get into Oxbridge have benefitted from private tuition for their GCSEs and received contextualised offers on the basis of their glue-stick dodging (and hurling!) skills.

At some schools it may very well not be the culture to aspire to university. The idea of outreach should stretch to those schools where this culture needs to be set up.I was a governor at a school who had passionate teaching staff yet the focus maybe necessarily was getting kids 5 A-Cs at GCSE and there was little (if not no) talk of high acheivers. I don't think I would have been taken seriously if I had suggested the set up that mumneedswine describes.

Are leavers destinations ever discussed as a management metric? I guess examination results and OFSTED inspections are the main management drivers for schools. This leads to the question is there motivation for teachers to go 'above and beyond' and provide the advise needed in schools?