To think universities should state separate entry criteria for Indies?

[Wacamole]

DD who is on track for 3A*s at A’level, thought she’d give Oxbridge a go after being encouraged by her teachers. All very excited, doing super curriculars etc. Only just been told she doesn’t meet minimum entry criteria that would be expected from an Indy, which is straight 9s. She doesn’t have straight 9s, she has straight 8s (couple of nines), not only that, the course she wanted to apply for at Cambridge doesn’t require Maths at all, but school has advised they won’t even look at her if she doesn’t do Maths AND Further Maths. She is doing neither. Apparently an EPQ is also mandatory even though none of this is mentioned on Cambridge website.

All this second guessing, reading between the lines has been really confusing.
I have no issue with universities asking for higher entry criteria for students from indies for obvious reasons but wish they would be more transparent and state this on their ‘Entry requirements’ same way they state contextual offers?

Nor think about how it would fit in with family life

@mumsneedwine

Encouraging about medicine and diversity.

Most of the medics I know are very professional and are articulate in terms of patient interaction. I think in the past unfortunatly medics were chosen from a demographic which meant they had little social exposure to a number of patient types e.g. those with obesity, mental health problems, substance abuse, poor diet etc. Medic humour is (maybe necesarily) dark at times but the offensive humour about 'shitlife syndrome' I think is uncalled for and shows a a rather nasty class bias.

I think outreach generally has advantage is tackling these issues by having a more diverse medic population.

@chopc while DD was applying the government was issuing the new junior doctor contracts. Did make DD cross and probably more political than she would be otherwise. She never considered job security (but I did) 😊. She has found every consultant and doctor so friendly and helpful - so far.

@AlexaShutUp

I think the point about parental support having a massive effect on life chances can not be understated.

I think in terms of outreach and fairer access to higher education you can focus slightly on the disadvantages of being in a more economically deprived areas but this is a broad brush attempt in my opinion to compensate for relatively unsupportive home settings. I would imagine this really is the definition of disadvantage that universities wish to use i.e. reduced parental edicational support (rather than simply less cash in the bank).

I really don't know if there is an answer. You can't really accuse parents that give their children a plentiful supply of reading material, tutoring (perhaps personaly), appropriate discipline and praise, self confidence and aspiration of giving their children an unfair advantage. (Surely we want this?)

No. But I would like the same for all the others who don’t get this. How to provide it seems to be the question. If you are a bin man/lady, can you tutor? Buy plentiful reading matter? Assist with general knowledge and inspire DC to be confident?

Ignore the “No” above. We do want DC to be helped but there needs to be a better system of schools helping DC when parents cannot.

@PresentingPercy we're trying ! Unis are trying. Not perfect but it is getting better. Slowly.

Ha! Yes, I know.

Regarding potential earnings. Is this a southern thing because homes are pricier here? You can nurse and teach in many towns in the north and a couple can easily afford a home if both teach. Not so in many SE areas. So where you intend to work and ambition might go together? There’s no need to get the really high paid job because you will have a roof over your head come what may.

@PresentingPercy

Really difficult isn't it. How much can schools do with limited resources to compensate from sometimes really quite difficult home circumstances (including the effects of poverty)?

I think when universities set out to increase the proportion of students from disadvantaged areas there has to be an understanding about some of the lives experienced by those from these areas.

I don't think there is conscious bias from universities or a lack of effort from outreach but in some cases the areas/schools in question experience levels of social deprivation that getting pupils into any higher education is a success in itself.

@PresentingPercy I expect mine will stay further North so she can afford a better house and standard of living.

@PresentingPercy

Good point. I love in the Midlands so don't really know London that well.

However London being our financial, cultural, and governmental capital surely means ambitious/aspirational people are attracted there generally?

The relatively close distance of Oxford Cambridge and obviously the London unis does make the SE into a loosely self contained eco system.....

@mids2019 part of the problem is in giving the belief in those students that an alternative way of life is really an option for them. And also their lives can be so chaotic that school work has to take a back seat. Some we manage to make it work for, but we don't for a lot as it's too daunting a hill to climb. And it makes me very sad.

Mine has been brought up in and around London and has no desire to ever live there again. She prefers hills and wide open spaces

I agree that universities and schools are trying to do what they can, but it's an immense gap to close. There are some fantastic initiatives happening, but an immense amount of resource is needed in order to make a real dent in the issue. Universities and schools don't have that kind of resource. I do think there is a growing role for the third sector and an army of willing, qualified volunteers....

Interesting question re whether location has an impact on how much kids think about earning potential. I grew up in the south east and lived there until around 12 years ago, but dd has grown up in the Midlands where this isn't really such an issue. I guess it might be a factor.

I grew up in NE England, but did consider possible future earnings even when I was 14.

So we're not all going to be Hollywood actors or premiership footballers and therefore the most likely path to a relatively lucrative career is through gaining a profession most likely through a degree from an established university.

Isn't this the rather dull truth to some of this? I don't know to what extent a typical 13/14 year old is aware of career opportunities (especially from deprived communities) but should pupils be made aware of this?

OK there is more to a degree than job prospects but certainly it may be prudent to consider what you will be doing with the majority of your life even at this going age.

Possibly this is a truth easier told when you have graduate parents?

I think another factor in general educational achievement must also be the educational level of parents.

I find it strange going from being the first in the family to go to university being a graduate parent and certainly it has skewed my view of possible aspirations for my children. I think I benefited from social mobility but the trade off is that like most parents I would like my children to do as well or better academically as my partner and myself so there is an element of sustained generational mobility to consider.

I think this may play into maybe unjustified fears of other graduate parents in that the social mobility from those from disadvantaged communities could potentially lead to downward mobility in their families (given entrance to elite unis e.g. Oxbridge is a zero sum game due to finite number of places)

If it's just about money then become a plumber. Ones I know earn a fortune !

Isn't this the rather dull truth to some of this? I don't know to what extent a typical 13/14 year old is aware of career opportunities (especially from deprived communities) but should pupils be made aware of this?

Yes, I think they probably should, but I think they should also be exposed to different perspectives on what constitutes success, research on what factors correlate with overall life satisfaction etc. We shouldn't simply be giving them the message that success is about earning potential.

I agree with the overall ambition of life satisfaction and yes life is not all about money....

However if we are talking about job prospects there is a prosaic statement to be made about how many gain a certain amount of income.

I think skilled trades do get a fair amount and from a purely monetary point of view are worth getting into (if you can). Interesting point but are the majority of well paid non graduate skilled jobs done by men? How many female plumbers do you know?

@AlexaShutUp yes yes yes !!! Success is not just monetary. Some people are happy to live with little money but do a job they love. And some people earn a lot without the academic success, but by pure hard graft. Success should be about happiness, time to do those things you love and see the people you love. Sappy but true - surely this pandemic has taught us what is important. No one ever wishes they'd spent more time at the office on their deathbed (not my line !).

I think another factor in general educational achievement must also be the educational level of parents.

But that doesn’t correlate with success / careers in the job market. Both DH and I did much better academically than our parents and went to top universities, whereas only one of our parents went to university, but we are much less successful than them and have harder lives. None of our parents were very well off, but were comfortable. Our children will have much harder lives than us. They are in their early 20s.

Interesting to read the different perspectives. I am doing a job I love and money never entered my head when choosing it. Like a previous poster, I always thought I will earn what I needed. However current lifestyle is funded by DH's job - I wouldn't be able to do it on mine ........ and yes current lifestyle brings me happiness and affords me to work part time and do other things in the days I don't work. In normal times this would include seeing people I like spending time with

He is interested in classics but hasn't done any Greek or Latin. Also interested in history and philosophy. I think he'd be a great candidate for English, due to breadth of his reading experience, but he seems less convinced by that.wink I really want to encourage him but don't want to patronise/interfere. Any suggestions?

What is his school background and what sort of GCSE grades Alexa? Classics II at Oxford could be a suggestion although avoiding the colleges with Classics tutors who are keener on the conventional. DD4 is a Classics II fresher and one of her interviews was analysing an unseen and obscure early eighteenth century English poem. So your DD's friend might be made for that (they'll mix it up on dates and type of literature obviously, but basically English/ obscure so requires raw talent at analysis). The Classics Aptitude Test looks for logic and linguistic skills.

Maybe check this out: www.wadham.ox.ac.uk/news/2021/march/summer-school-applications-now-open

Still mystified why anyone who travels 5 hours to Cambridge (or even 2 if I have them the wrong way round) would use the A11 to get there. It is keeping me amused to guess where on earth they are coming from?

SeasonFinale when I used to take students from school to Krakow, we got there from Devon in less time than it appears to take to get from not far from London to Cambridge. You know, leave the school, drive to the airport an hour and a half away in a minibus, check in, fly with easyjet, drive into Krakow and collapse on our beds in the hotel next to Rynek Glowny for a brief moment of recovery before hitting the town. And I never lost a student on any trip :) It really isn't that hard, nothing is. Unless you make it that hard.

The Head of History and I organised these trips, ably assisted by Dave our Head Groundsman. Usually about forty students, so no mean feat in marshalling/ not losing/ retrieving from Beer Cellars before too much damage was done etc. But still, less than five hours to get from school gate to hotel bed.