To think universities should state separate entry criteria for Indies?

[Wacamole]

DD who is on track for 3A*s at A’level, thought she’d give Oxbridge a go after being encouraged by her teachers. All very excited, doing super curriculars etc. Only just been told she doesn’t meet minimum entry criteria that would be expected from an Indy, which is straight 9s. She doesn’t have straight 9s, she has straight 8s (couple of nines), not only that, the course she wanted to apply for at Cambridge doesn’t require Maths at all, but school has advised they won’t even look at her if she doesn’t do Maths AND Further Maths. She is doing neither. Apparently an EPQ is also mandatory even though none of this is mentioned on Cambridge website.

All this second guessing, reading between the lines has been really confusing.
I have no issue with universities asking for higher entry criteria for students from indies for obvious reasons but wish they would be more transparent and state this on their ‘Entry requirements’ same way they state contextual offers?

@MarshaBradyo Empress is correct. All papers are marked and then grade boundaries set. So in a selective school most pupils will have got better than average marks, so get higher grades. A 9 has ranged from 63% to 92% over various subjects since they new grades were introduced. The % tends to go up as schools get better at teaching the new syllabuses.

Thanks Mums

Steer clear of East Devon if you want to make your fortune in bins. £8.72 an hour.

Talking of bins: when I worked for a District Council decades ago, binmen jobs were never advertised. They were recruited from a network based on a few families who ruled the roost so to speak. I am not sure who let this happen but it’s true that they loved their jobs.

I think some of the comments really misunderstand private schools. Of course DC from them are encouraged to be nurses and vet nurses! Some of the vet nurse courses are very competitive to get into. It’s very easy to assume that private schools only supply DC for the “top” well paid jobs. This is ludicrous. Of course they don’t.

The degree where grads earn the most 5 years after graduation is medicine. It’s the best paid degree at that point. This is because nearly all grads get jobs on a national pay scale. Others do better in smaller numbers. There are around 18,000 las grads each year but around 5000 trainee solicitor positions and 400 barristers. Around 50% of these are not taken by law grads at all. Medicine at least gives near certainty regarding employment in your chosen field.

@PresentingPercy

I think that is why it's important to ascertain the motivation for studying medicine as a good STEM applicant may choose the profession based on job security and remuneration (and social status?)

I think medicine is an area rule for outreach work with associated work experience.

I think that’s absolutely right @mids2019

Status and those school destination lists that parents pore over! Very few medics from my DDs schools! I would like to see slightly less emphasis on top grades for medics and more on personality and actually being able to speak to people and explain things!!

@goodbyestranger

Probably good advice......

@PresentingPercy

I think medical applications are akin to Oxbridge applications. Private schools make a note of the number of medical applications on their websites.

It was the case back in my day that 50% of medics were privately educated (this may have.changed). Although I agree that a solid academic record is necessarily do you necessarily have to have elite grades?

Side point but some medics I know are very condescending (and offensive) to patients in private due to their social background. I think it may help having more medics with backgrounds that more closely reflect their patients'.

Contextual offers should be making a big difference now. I know DDs medic friend from Bristol uni didn’t have a great family life and had a contextual offer. There were plenty of others I’m sure. Not all were from Westminster or Harrow!

The process for selection for medicine hopefully now ensures students are better at the patient stuff. Hard to get through 7 MMI stations if not good with people. Everyone has the grades but the ones who get the offers can also do the human stuff too.

PresentingPercy - yes re my 1/3 1/3 1/3 thing. I was merely plucking figures from the air and not quoting stats as I am sure you were well aware. I will rephrase it then. In a course where Oxford interview 4 for each place on a course (so a 25% success rate) then there may be 10% who are definites 10% definitely no and the rest could go either way depending on all the factors previously stated. Hope that has clarified matters. It still stands that there is a large group who may or may not get in. In a year where they are restricting offers to more closely align with the actual number of places available (because most are likely to meet grade requirements) then fewer of that middle group are getting offers. I am sorry if my crude phraseology offended you and hope this subsequent explanation helps.

Slight deviation from the thread, but speaking of contextual offers etc, dd has a friend from a very challenging family background who I think might well be Oxbridge material. He is certainly very intelligent and reads really widely, but his academic performance goes up and down depending on what's going on in his life. Definitely capable of top grades but may not actually get them. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I might encourage him from afar?

He is interested in classics but hasn't done any Greek or Latin. Also interested in history and philosophy. I think he'd be a great candidate for English, due to breadth of his reading experience, but he seems less convinced by that. I really want to encourage him but don't want to patronise/interfere. Any suggestions?

Still mystified why anyone who travels 5 hours to Cambridge (or even 2 of ai have them the wrong way round) would use the A11 to get there. It is keeping me amused to guess where on earth they are coming from?

Mine is from comp via v large 6th form college. Says there's a real mix of backgrounds but still a lot from private schools.
She'll be glad to hear she's going to be well paid. Not sure she's ever looked at how much a doctor earns.

Hard to get through 7 MMI stations if not good with people. Everyone has the grades but the ones who get the offers can also do the human stuff too.

That's good news for my dd as the people stuff is definitely a strength for her, but could you tell me what MMI stations are, please?

Not sure she's ever looked at how much a doctor earns.

Nope, don't think dd has considered this either, though she does see job security as a plus. As far as finances go, I think she trusts that she will earn enough to cover her living costs, and she hasn't really thought about it much further.

Not RTFT but no I don't think it is as simple as one set of grades for state and one for indies. Many superselective state schools outperform regional small independents. And the variation between state schools is huge. London has some state schools very geared up to putting students to oxbridge whereas there are many parts of the country when barely a handful make it to any university at all and have not had an oxbridge candidate ever.

@AlexaShutUp

Slight deviation from the thread, but speaking of contextual offers etc, dd has a friend from a very challenging family background who I think might well be Oxbridge material. He is certainly very intelligent and reads really widely, but his academic performance goes up and down depending on what's going on in his life. Definitely capable of top grades but may not actually get them. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I might encourage him from afar?

He is interested in classics but hasn't done any Greek or Latin. Also interested in history and philosophy. I think he'd be a great candidate for English, due to breadth of his reading experience, but he seems less convinced by that. I really want to encourage him but don't want to patronise/interfere. Any suggestions?

If no family history of uni then apply to a summer school with Sutton Trust or Uniq. Also depending on where you live some unis offer summer schools. My DC went to a crap comp with low levels of aspiration in a deprived area of Cornwall (it's alll deprived really when you strip out the second homes!) and Bristol uni offered a subject summer schools where students could go and spend a week in halls and do stuff with tutors. DD did one on maths. I think Durham may do ones for similar students in the NE. And so on. DS did a two day thing in Cambridge but not sure what that was tbh.

Thank you @shallIswim - that's really helpful. I don't know much about the family history but will try to find out.

@shallIswim DD did the Bristol summer school too. That's why she's there now as she loved it so much.

To add, @AlexaShutUp we knew a similar boy, went to school with DS. Grew up in a caravan with his dad and never had access to TV etc but read voraciously and was super bright. Got to 15 tho and there was more pressure for him to go out lamping than to study and that was that. He could have done anything -
would have made an excellent doctor - but family pressure and lack of aspiration scuppered it. He works as a junior chef in a local hotel now

@SeasonFinale
Absolutely not offended. I just thought the odds you quoted were too big! It interested me to look at the stats.

I think the middle are being squeezed. Some DC here do not even seem to be in the middle! More top end but possibly with the odd minute flaw.

The areas of the country where few get to Oxbridge always concerns me. I lean towards DC wanting to stay localish. Parents not working with DC to "aim for the highest" but are happy to aim "good enough" and stay where DC are happy and feel they fit in. Not scientific of course but it is difficult to imagine some very large areas have no bright DC at all who could aim for Oxbridge.

Another issue might be is that lots of MC children just are not in those areas and schools any longer. So those that are left do not aim high and the schools do not push Oxbridge. It is interesting that certain London comps definitely do. However they must have higher achieving DC in them, and recognised by them, to even consider entering them for Oxbridge. Are some schools staffed by teachers who would shun Oxbridge themselves? I do not know, but I wonder.

I do not think Oxbridge is everything either. But they are used as a gold standard for aspiration.

@AlexaShutUp sorry. MMI stands for mini multiple interviews. So there are between 5-8 stations of about 7 minutes each. One might be a task (eg tell someone how to build a Lego car), one might be ask a patient about an issue, one might be help a person fill in a form, another a straight interview about why that Uni why medicine, another might be a maths one working out a drug dose. They use patient educators (so real patients who enjoy helping). It's pretty full on and each station is scored. But means if one goes badly you can still get in by doing well on the others. You need people skills !

Thank you @mumsneedwine, sounds right up dd's street!

I don't think it's a bad idea to think about job security and earning potential when considering a future career ........