To think universities should state separate entry criteria for Indies?

[Wacamole]

DD who is on track for 3A*s at A’level, thought she’d give Oxbridge a go after being encouraged by her teachers. All very excited, doing super curriculars etc. Only just been told she doesn’t meet minimum entry criteria that would be expected from an Indy, which is straight 9s. She doesn’t have straight 9s, she has straight 8s (couple of nines), not only that, the course she wanted to apply for at Cambridge doesn’t require Maths at all, but school has advised they won’t even look at her if she doesn’t do Maths AND Further Maths. She is doing neither. Apparently an EPQ is also mandatory even though none of this is mentioned on Cambridge website.

All this second guessing, reading between the lines has been really confusing.
I have no issue with universities asking for higher entry criteria for students from indies for obvious reasons but wish they would be more transparent and state this on their ‘Entry requirements’ same way they state contextual offers?

If the binman job is so good, you do it. I'd be fuming if a teacher earmarked my kids as "binman" or any other low-paid job. my kids are not factory fodder, no matter how useful their manual labour is to y'all.

It's not actually the binman job per se that riles me so much; it's the lack of choice that means low paid, low pension jobs are often all that is available to the working class as a consequence of the cheap, mass education they receive.

(I also understand that a binman job actually pays relatively well, so feel that binman should be replaced with "zero hours contract retail worker")

Yes Alexa hence my input for a large number of years in rl, hopefully to make a very tiny difference to that end.

@AlexaShutUp totally agree. Wish we could offer technical courses from 14 as it would really help many kids who hate academic stuff. But Gove has made it all about being academic and removed anything that was vaguely suited to other skills. We offer college one day a week to a handful of our students and they learn motor mechanics or hair and beauty or childcare. They get a qualification and pretty much all walk into an apprenticeship at 16, doing something they enjoy. Surely that's the purpose of education, to prepare everyone for the working world and adult life. Not an exam sausage factory only geared towards those who can do exams.

I think it can't be denied that some fulfilling careers will only be open to graduates (and then graduates from certain universities). I think it's a case of avoiding doors being closed by not applying. Someone pointed out that in another thread that 80% of graduate jobs are not aligned to a specific degree and I don't know how aware everyone is aware of this especially to those who are vocationally minded.

A lot of things in life aren’t fair and most situations in life are subjective. Learning to accept and navigate that reality sets them up for success in life

How crass. You might not want your DD to accept that lack of fairness if she was at a state comp.

@goodbyestranger: I'm always at my worst!

For clarity, I haven't referred back to another thread re. bitterness. I'm in fact extrapolating from PMs which MNHQ is able to access and check. The author of those PMs is lucky I don't name and shame, which I'd be entirely at liberty to do. But I'm not quite that mean, although it's not out of the question I suppose.

I don't think it's necessary to be micromanaging a child's choices to be interested in issues around education, equality of access etc. I first became interested in this area when I was a student, and I volunteered for the Target Schools initiative to encourage more state applicants to Oxbridge. I also have experience of working in a university and in charities which support disadvantaged youth, so I have a range of different perspectives on some of the issues. I find the whole debate fascinating.

I am naturally interested in my own dd's educational journey and will obviously support her in achieving her goals to the best of my ability, but there is certainly no micromanaging here, and I am not over-invested in the outcome at all. On the contrary, I'm entirely confident that she will do well wherever she ends up.

It's not actually the binman job per se that riles me so much; it's the lack of choice that means low paid, low pension jobs are often all that is available to the working class as a consequence of the cheap, mass education they receive.

Exactly. These threads get so limited. It's all about choice.

@mumsneedwine say whaaaaaat?

The tripartite system reinforced inequality

@AlexaShutUp don't think it was aimed at you 😊.

As a teacher I get paid to support students applications to Uni/apprenticeships/jobs. I also support students to find work experience. Weirdly I used to be an HR Manager so was on the other side of the fence, taking wex students as well as implementing and running our graduate training scheme. As a creative company where you went to Uni was not important. How hard you worked was.
Neither of my own applied to Oxbridge because they didn't want to go there. Some people find that weird, but the courses were not to their liking. Will not make any difference in their careers.

My two DS went to a non-selective, very small, independent sixth form. No guidance at all was given for university applications such as medicine, vet medicine, Oxbridge etc as only 1 of each maybe applied each year. Mumsnet forums and posters with experience have provided so much info that has made things a lot easier when navigating the processes.

@CinnamonJellyBeans eh ??? I hate grammar schools (selecting kids at 10/11 usually involving tutoring which costs money), and I would hate technical schools. But I would love all schools to be able to provide a practical based option for those kids who want it. Alongside their peers and as well as the option to take GCSEs. It used to be called a comprehensive until Gove took away BTEC options.

You might not want your DD to accept that lack of fairness if she was at a state comp

Not sure what you mean. My dd is at a state comp and already knows that life is inherently unfair. She knows that it is unfair, for example, that she gets 9s easily while some of her friends have to put in far more work to get a 5. She knows that it's unfair that she has natural confidence and an ability to talk to anyone while some of her friends have crippling social anxiety. She knows that it is unfair that some of her friends have difficult, dysfunctional home lives when she has supportive parents. She knows it is unfair that she can do all of the extracurricular activities that she chooses while some of her friends can't afford to do any of them. I am thankful that she has recognised this unfairness around her, that she has empathy for others in more challenging situations and that she is learning to challenge unfairness wherever she finds it.

Denying the inherent unfairness in life doesn't help anyone. Pretending it isn't real won't make it go away. Kids do need to accept that reality and learn to navigate it, while also learning to challenge the unfairness when it is appropriate to do so.

@AlexaShutUp

It's an interesting case in point medicine where actually university isn't so much of a factor in future employment.

However if you wish to medicine as a career are you approaching getting high
STEM A levels with the an inherent passion for the subjects or a source of personal enlightenment? I would imagine a lot of medics may want to get high grades simply to enter the profession.

Medicine is very much a profession where academic attainment is used a filter. Also a career where possibly fulfilment may be achievable but happiness at times may be debatable.

@Lovecatsanddogs hello !!! Hope lambing going well - think I'll be a veggie by the end of their placements after all the cute photos !
I only come on here because I know many schools don't offer much support and I hope I can help a little bit. I've learned a lot from my own kids Uni applications too. Things change every year and it's so important to check with Unis for up to date info. On results day I will cry, I do every year. Seeing students get their results and start their new futures is the most rewarding job in the world. I earn a 1/3 of what I used to, but I love this job so much more.

don't think it was aimed at you

No, @mumsneedwine, I knew it wasn't aimed at me, but my point was that people will have reasons for being interested beyond their own dc.

@mumsneedwine Exactly the sixth form provision does vary widely and the only help was a quick skim of the personal statements with advice to put more extracurricular which DS and DD chose to ignore.

Lambing going well thanks DD has delivered a few now!

@AlexaShutUp: The poster @Empressofthemundane was talking about schools (in particular, a selective independent) then went on to say "life is unfair".

I don't think she was talking about the fairness/unfairness of whether your kid is a sparkling diamond compared to the other lesser mortals she is surrounded by.

@AlexaShutUp gotcha. V fair comment. Lots of reasons to be invested, just not a lot of reasons to rubbish everyone else's opinions.
@Lovecatsanddogs it's such a shame not all students get access to the same level of advice, but it depends on staff time and interest I suppose. Hopefully MN helps level things up a little bit.

Well, this thread has moved on....

@CinnamonJellyBeans Your post agree massively with the binman thing. Binman indeed. What poverty of expectation. Who pushes their child into the world, looks at their face and thinks "binman"? If you were raised in poverty, you'd soon stop romanticising a life on minimum wage and start thinking of ways to get a piece of that pie. really made me laugh but it’s so true.

romanticising poverty is a very British thing, infact some will say it’s a virtue, ‘Binman’ goes alongside ideals such as crumbling ‘Victorian’ buildings, wood fires, a rickety wagon, no running water but a lovely stream nearby kind of thing. All markers of privileged people who have never known what it’s like to actually live in those conditions with no other alternative.

@CinnamonJellyBeans

I think you make some good points about romanticising poverty and accepting the real difficulties that being on a zero hour contract creates.

I have relatives from the past that worked in mines. The life was rubbish.

Addressing poverty of aspiration is important and I think we shouldn't accept low GCSE performance as inevitable. The problem from a teaching perspective is identifying whether the low grades are due to a lack of inherent ability of due to lack of motivation due to various social factors.

I agree that choice is paramount

However if a DC envisage a lifestyle they want, a certain amount of money is required to achieve that. So doesn't this follow that they would need to do a certain type of job?

I know not everyone is capable of this and we live in a country with such huge salary discrepancies.

It's all very well following your passion but sometimes needs must

Wacamole yes. In fact romanticising poverty and shitty jobs can be quite powerfully sinister.

But someone has to get low grades / they are worked out on a bell curve. If everyone got over 90% then 90% would be a 1.
And there is nothing romantic about poverty (are you aware binmen can earn over £40,000 a year - that's not poverty to me). Poverty is shit, I know I grew up in it for many years. But my parents worked hard and we became comfortable.
Aspiration should be there for all students. But that might mean zoo keeper or hairdresser or gardener or plumber. Success to me means happiness with enough food to eat and a non leaky roof over my head.
Zero hour jobs have always existed, used to be called a casual labour. Just now being exploited by those greedy people in charge. Wonder where those leaders went to Uni.