To think universities should state separate entry criteria for Indies?

[Wacamole]

DD who is on track for 3A*s at A’level, thought she’d give Oxbridge a go after being encouraged by her teachers. All very excited, doing super curriculars etc. Only just been told she doesn’t meet minimum entry criteria that would be expected from an Indy, which is straight 9s. She doesn’t have straight 9s, she has straight 8s (couple of nines), not only that, the course she wanted to apply for at Cambridge doesn’t require Maths at all, but school has advised they won’t even look at her if she doesn’t do Maths AND Further Maths. She is doing neither. Apparently an EPQ is also mandatory even though none of this is mentioned on Cambridge website.

All this second guessing, reading between the lines has been really confusing.
I have no issue with universities asking for higher entry criteria for students from indies for obvious reasons but wish they would be more transparent and state this on their ‘Entry requirements’ same way they state contextual offers?

I know a maths teacher (ex Warwick) from a very wealthy family. People do the jobs they enjoy. A former school friend became an Ambassador and is now Dame .... Her dad was an admiral. Did MFL at Kent.

I think background definitely plays a part in career choices. School, not necessarily. Personality - definitely. Most proper farmers inherit farms. As my dad did. It tends to limit career choices though! Expectation trumps all.

Also most private schools do introduce DC to caring about others and being decent people. It’s also pretty clear that university attended makes a huge difference to career prospects in some areas of work.

I think hard work counts as much as background when it comes to 'success' these days. Lots of employers now recruit blindly. It's just easier to succeed if you are born with monetary advantage and have supportive parents. Oxbridge is some people's idea of ultimate success. It's not mine.

However that is making the assumption that employers and society in general view all institutions as equivalent and there's the rub.

I don't disagree with this, but ultimately, I guess it comes down to a question of values. Not all of us are that bothered about what a relatively small number of elite employers might think, nor indeed about what "society" values. I would far rather that my dd chose a course that she loves, and a career/lifestyle that she loves, than one which is considered elite or successful by those around her. I would hate for her to choose a subject or course that didn't inspire her, just so that she could get into Oxbridge and have doors opened for her that she might not even want to walk through anyway. For what, exactly?

I don't care if dd has a career that makes her rich, and I don't care if others regard her as successful. I just want her to be happy and fulfilled in the life that she has chosen. If she went off to Oxbridge and then decided to become a primary school teacher, I would not think that her academic experience would have been wasted at all. I don't see education as a means to an end or as a passport to a particular kind of status or earning potential, I see it as something that enriches individuals and makes their lives more interesting.

As it happens, dd wants to do medicine, so getting into Oxbridge will have very little impact on her future career path either way. She wants to go there, not because of the doors that it might open, but rather for the experience itself - she wants to live that life for a few years, and why not?

I suppose one of the challenges for private schools is that they need to create future generations of parents who will be happy to shell out for school fees. It therefore wouldn't be in their interests to encourage kids to pursue too much happiness and personal fulfillment over and above a lucrative career.

@PresentingPercy my DD has a friend from Eton who is the loveliest young man I've ever met. He sent me flowers when I was ill, bought me a voucher to his dad's health club (it's v exclusive) and is planning to take my DD and friends to their island as soon as he can (all expenses paid). Besides all this he is an amazing friend to my DD at Uni - unfortunately he's gay but I have told her she should marry him anyway.
His school did a great job (& his parents too). I've found most young people from all backgrounds are lovely and I spend a lot of time with them.

I agree massively with the binman thing. Binman indeed. What poverty of expectation. Who pushes their child into the world, looks at their face and thinks "binman"? If you were raised in poverty, you'd soon stop romanticising a life on minimum wage and start thinking of ways to get a piece of that pie.

Our education system keeps the working class firmly working class.You can give me all sorts of anecdotes about wide boys making a fortune in the city, but that's all they are: Stories of individuals not the lived experience of state comprehensive students.Education is the only way to social mobility. Teachers need to have higher expectations of their students. If their GCSE target is a 5, you should be aiming for a 6. Bare minimum.

Thank heavens for ofsted and performance management. No wonder grades for the working class are finally going up.

@AlexaShutUp and why not ! I agree with that statement 😊. If Oxbridge is her place then go for it - both are v nice places to live.
And some private schools do have to produce the statistics to recruit new parents. I hope they still allow a student to become a nurse not a doctor if that's what they want. Or a vet nurse and not a vet.

Surely most people don’t know what they might do after university when they apply. That comes later. I know lots of people, younger and older, who went to Oxford or Cambridge, and hardly any are in high-paying jobs. Lots are teachers, including primary. Many work jobs in the media or arts or museums. These are often all low-paying and/or freelance. Many did work in the arts /media/ museum sector for quite a long time before moving into teaching because it’s better paid and more secure. None of them left university and chose to go on graduate schemes. They weren’t those sort of people. But all are super bright.

I meant to add, another one I know became a midwife, and yet another a physiotherapist. Neither had anything to do with their degrees.

Lots of lower / middle paid jobs are highly coveted still. In the arts etc and competition is high.

There’s no reason young people out of top universities might choose it. Or teaching.

There’s nothing worse than being in the wrong job / career and being very smart doesn’t mean it’s just lucrative jobs you go for.

Absolutely Alexa. My DC applied because they liked the idea of a few years in Oxford and (apart from the eldest, obviously) saw older siblings enjoying it. The DS who read Medicine had additional time to make the most of everything the university offered - what's not to like. None of mine ever saw it as any particular mark of success. We tend to do one thing at a time in this house; things work out and I've never seen the need for particular hurry.

I know all about the importance of education for social mobility. I have seen this play out in different ways in my own family, and indeed in my career. High aspirations and hard work can make a huge difference to what someone can achieve, absolutely. However, it is important to recognise that not everyone will succeed academically, regardless of how hard they work, and that's ok too. Aspiration and hard work can be channeled in other directions as well, not only academia. For some people, those other avenues will reap much greater rewards.

@CinnamonJellyBeans 😂 as a very working class comp educated person raised in a house with an outside loo for 7 years I think I have a little experience on this matter. I was lucky as I had fantastic parents who valued education (both left school at 15 as there was no money for them to stay in). And I got given money to go to Uni. And I have worked hard, never going to inherit anything so knew I had to provide every penny myself. Now pretty comfortable, not rich, but I don't need to be. I like my life.
My friends husband is a binman. He loves his job and thank god he does or we'd be knee deep in crap. They earn good money and are finished early so can pick up their kids from school & he runs the after school rugby club. Bet many dads would love more time with their kids.
Sneering at peoples life choices is not clever or kind. Just because you don't like the sound of it doesn't mean others have the same ideas. My husband plays football with a man who cleans sewers - waxes lyrical about fat deposits. Each to their own.

@AlexaShutUp

A very wise reply.

I think you have got the nail on the head when it comes to values. It's a philosophical debate looking into the fundamental reasons for education and indeed fulfilment and happiness.

The DC of mine who have graduated are in a range of jobs. The key thing is that they're the jobs they want, but earnings vary quite widely and will continue to vary widely if they stick at the same stuff. I would say only one is motivated by money, but I suspect that's to fund a lifestyle which includes eg own vineyard in France etc rather than any love of money or status per se.

Wow! What a thread.

I have a DD in yr12. She’s really good, but not perfect.

I’m going to encourage her to apply but to not get over invested. There are a lot of other very good schools in the UK which will also serve her well. It’s probably more impotent how engaged the student is once they get to uni, then the uni they get into.

She is at a selective, independent school. This is the approach I’d take with any child though.

A lot of things in life aren’t fair and most situations in life are subjective. Learning to accept and navigate that reality sets them up for success in life.

Like many people, a degree (even from Oxford or Cambridge) does not lead directly to a career. Many don’t want corporate careers. I know two who started off in law and one who went into accountancy after university and ended up in one of the big London firms and all left after a couple of years. It wasn’t for them. One became a gardener/landscape designer. Another went into the media. Yet another eventually became a taxi driver. Another became a teacher.

@daisypond - you seem to know the same people I do! My fellow Cambridge graduates have gone on to have very mixed fortunes and careers. The ones born rich (the vast majority) have often tended to go for less lucrative, but prestigious professions (arts stuff, for example). Plenty are also teachers, including at primary. Women have, to a much higher degree, 'failed to walk through the doors of opportunity' that have (supposedly) been opened.

@Empressofthemundane a very sensible approach.

I think it's fair to say that high tariff unis give choice. I think it's very questionable to say most bin men choose to be bin men etc. More often the shitty jobs are done by those who may well be bright but who haven't been afforded any mechanism for choice. So to say I think bin men are wonderful etc is missing a great big point, just as it is to say oh I know an Oxford graduate who gave up a lucrative career to grow daisies. I'm all for maximizing choice.

@azul5 lovely to meet you.

Yes indeed, a very welcome first post (I only checked back twelve years :)).

I'm all for maximizing choice.

Me too, and I agree that a degree from a top university helps to do that. However, I also want an education system that maximises choice for those who are at the less academic end of the scale by offering a genuine range of vocational options for those who will never have a realistic prospect of going to university at all. Those kids, too, deserve choices.

I have to say to brand new azul5, I'm completely happy with my DCs' choices and they're completely happy with my lack of micro management, or even management come to that, which may in fact be the clue to any perceived success.

Oxbridge really does show posters at their worst.