Another path to greatness - part III

[chopc]

Here is the new thread

*derail!

The problem you describe won't be overcome with increasing the number of doctors @Pumpkintopf . I wonder how many of these undesirable posts were filled by foreign (including EU) docs as the home doctors didn't want to work there? UK used to have a huge problem with doctor retention due to the poor working conditions and the bottleneck. That is probably part of the reason for them recruiting more now.

I think you're certainly right about the recruitment abroad chopc, our local hospital trust has definitely had to do this - do you think even if more doctors were trained these undesirable posts would still remain vacant? Perhaps I'm being naive and overly simplistic, I don't understand much about it beyond what I've heard from here and local issues.

Have your DC done some research into how their potential universities & colleges handled the pandemic? Your DC will probably have to self isolate at some stage and cope with Covid restrictions. Maths and humanities students have had a crap year at universities like Durham, but a whale of a time at Bath, York, Bristol and Exeter. Durham made students quarantine when they got there and many still aren't back. Clubs haven't got second years to run them next year as they haven't run this year. London halls have been half empty without overseas students. Scottish universities more of less closed. It's going to be miserable in a flat in the autumn with freshers quarantining again. Not really a vibrant diverse community when they can't leave their rooms. Check out if their top choices supported the students or if they gave them airline meals when they couldn't leave their rooms to get food. Tradition and careers mean nothing if your university treats you like you've been forgotten. The way some places looked after the students has been fantastic but some places have been terrible. Find out what real students say before firming anything. Students will be scapegoats til at least the end of the year.

@Pumpkintopf

I think you're certainly right about the recruitment abroad chopc, our local hospital trust has definitely had to do this - do you think even if more doctors were trained these undesirable posts would still remain vacant? Perhaps I'm being naive and overly simplistic, I don't understand much about it beyond what I've heard from here and local issues.

Yes. Posts remain unfilled for many reasons but one of them is that, for example, being a GP partner is extremely unattractive at the moment and has been for several years. It's not badly paid (though the DM headlines are so far from the truth it's laughable) but the workload is unsustainable (and no one who isn't a GP understands what that really means and think the job looks easy which adds to the frustration). The workload has escalated during the pandemic, is worse now than ever and the level of complaints is also high (many of them complaining about access in an era when access is far better than it's ever been and not understanding the irony of taking staff members out of other work for up to 3 hours sometimes to deal with and answer a complaint properly ). Throwing money at the problem isn't the answer. I know many GPs who have moved house so they can afford to work fewer hours because they're afraid of burn out. The NHS can do 2 out of 3 of the following: fast, good, free. At the moment we're trying to do good and free but, in an Amazon era, that's not acceptable for many patients. Sorry this is nothing to do with the thread but it's in response to the "create more doctors" idea. There are enough doctors. There are also many forums full of doctors exploiting alternative careers because they are fed up of being dumped on constantly. (That's the one advantage of general practice over consultants - fewer managers telling you how to do your job).

Not only "undesirable" posts are being filled up by "foreign" doctors, desirable / competitive as well. Too many junior jobs compared to senior jobs, ratio increased further by improving junior working conditions (reduced hours).

DH is a Partner in a GP practice. The others are locums from overseas as doctors aren’t wanting to train as GP’s and there is a huge shortage. DH came to the U.K. on a scholarship from Canada when he was 21 to continue with his medical studies
We are leaving the U.K. as a result of Brexit and not the pandemic but DH can’t wait for travel restrictions to be lifted so we can get on a plane and leave. He has had enough.
Regardless of whether it is an attractive job or not, there needs to be medical school places for bright students who want to study. There is a huge shortage of doctors (and the government are making ridiculous promises about how to clear the waiting list backlog and provide more GP appointments) and some of you have DC’s who medical schools should be fighting over to get.

@EconButlerSnow I think you make a very interesting and important point. Where can we find this info do you think?

We could also try things like offering student loans to doctors only if they agree to work for the NHS for 10 years after qualifying or requiring them whether they have a loan or not to work for the NHS for 10 years post qualification including as GPs wherever so allocated. That kind of if you leave you pay back your maternity pay or you pay back the training costs we paid for is really really common in the private sector. We do have lots of unemployed people now and we also have lots of pretty good applicants to medical school.

Hm, Xenia, yes, but you would need to get more doctors to apply for GP training jobs first. You don't want to get an unemployed surgeon working as a GP.

General Practice is a specific training path. You can't just put any doctor into a GP position.

Thanks for the stats about applications for medicine, Seasonfinale - they were much more extreme than I was expecting. No wonder increasing numbers of well-qualified students are not getting offers.

Just had a Google and it does look like there are plans to increase places and open new medical schools, but I'm guessing the numbers aren't enough to cope with the level of shortage we're facing:

www.hee.nhs.uk/news-blogs-events/news/new-medical-schools-open-train-doctors-future

I also read an article from last year about plans to open a new medical school as part of Chester university, but no idea how that's progressing.

DD got her student loan paperwork through.... so all done! Very quick, and easy to do.

She is definitely ahead of the game with her decision making. She likes to get her ducks in order, so once decision made, all systems go. She is one of those people who needs to have her life in order. Good in some ways, bad in others. When it goes wrong, she does suffer.

Accommodation also booked. And an offer holders "in person" open day late May. I think (hope) she may go with BF, as it's a long old journey from here, 6 hours round trip, for a couple of hours on campus, and I don't like trains......

Much as we need more front line GPs, a particular issue round here (and more acute hospital medical staff where we live) I believe the recent pandemic has shown us that also we need plenty of academically inclined medically qualified individuals beavering away in the background, using their training in research and development programs such as Prof. Van-Tam.

The newer medical schools opened in recent years seem to be geared towards producing future GPs and it is hoped they will be inclined to settle in the area local to the Uni they graduate from, hence eventually be looking to take up GP posts in that area.

@SATSmadness I hope your DD is feeling a bit better. I really hope her school is supportive beyond the academics. Her academic track record should set her in good stead to get the grades she deserves. She will most likely still hit them despite all that has been going on but the school should be aware of the extenuating circumstances just in case. I can understand how disheartened she must feel, especially when there is a lot of talk about offers at school. They put their heart and soul into their applications. Also it's a career they are signing up for, not just a degree and it all feels very personal too with the focus of the interview on character. Also, although success stories about round 2 applicants are really encouraging, it doesn't help much when you are still in the thick of Year 13. Sending hugs.

Medicine has always been a competitive degree and I am sure every year there are students with perfect stats who don't make into training. And I can tell you go sure there are medical students who really shouldn't have got a spot in the first place although I think people are less likely to go into it due to parental expectations these days with no interest in what they are learning so wouldn't want to be an academic or a doctor.

Your DD should definitely ask for some feedback from her interviewers @SATSmadness . So she knows how to target her application next year. And I sincerely hope the answer won't be - you were good, but others were better ......

@SATSmadness, I have to ask about newer medical schools being geared to producing GPs! Is that a known explicitly stated fact? Or a reflection of the reality that General Practice is a big speciality and many will go down that route anyway? I’ve not heard that anywhere. I’m a GP who trains GPs , remote from the undergrad world now, but wow. If true how depressing.. by which I mean preconceived ideas of what a particular job entails is often very different from the reality, shame to be channelled so early .

@hobbema

As stated at a session open to pupils from all schools in the area, run in conjunction with a fledgling med school when DD was lower down the school and showing an interest in medicine.

There was also the message of always apply for undergraduate medicine, don't apply for something else thinking you can switch course or that you'll be able to fund graduate entry medicine on top of a first degree (although interestingly enough, no mention of how competitive GEM is).

@hobbema

www.gponline.com/five-new-medical-schools-open-biggest-ever-expansion-medical-training/article/1459894

"These schools are being set up in parts of the country where it is can be hard to recruit and attract new doctors"

I did read somewhere that if medical schools expand too quickly, too much pressure is put on hospitals for training on the wards. Therefore wards and services which are very stretched are up against it even more. I also read that if we recruit large numbers to vastly expanded medical schools, other degrees such as Biology, Chemistry and Maths will suffer a severe decline is very good applicants. I have no idea if that is actually true, but apparently we do not have enough well qualified people for expanded medical courses, so the argument went. Undoubtedly the unsuccessful medical candidates do other degrees. Their expertise and high calibre learning might then be lost to that field.

I suspect our GPs are seeing far more people remotely so perhaps their job has changed? My surgery car park is always half empty now. The hospitals are reporting more people contacting them again as a first point of contact. So perhaps the pent up demand is causing them problems again after the pandemic onslaught?

It has been known for a long, long, time that thousands of GPS were retiring and because of their pension provision and tax, were retiring very early. Also that others would return "home". I also think no medical student should be working abroad within 10 years of qualifiying. There should be a sliding scale of paying back actual costs of training if they do that. As in other roles. It seems reasonable to treat the people who paid for the training and, hopefully, we then do not recruit so many people from abroad and take resources away from developing countries.

I have yet to meet a poor GP barely making a living. It is seen as a Cinderella service though and does not appear attractive to enough new Doctors.

Thanks for that @SATSmadness. No mention I can see of a gearing of the course for wannabe GPs per se... other than it being from a GP rag of course!

Does the 21% increase in medicine applicants include students from last year who were reapplying - some who had offers which they missed due to the whole grade situation last year were told to reapply through ucas for admin purposes but their offer would stand.

" GPS were retiring and because of their pension provision and tax, were retiring very early. Also that others would return "home""

Also happening in hospitals...

And because many "foreigners" were/are recruited to fill the junior doctors jobs and then "get stuck/don't progress", they go back "home". Not many would have trained in their own country to then become a GP in the UK. Although many do stay here and change direction to become a GP.

@hobbema The GMC would surely have something to say about gearing the course accordingly !

I can't find the web page now where reference was made to the F1/F2 years and "embedding" GP training etc. from an earlier stage to help with providing plenty of GPs at the end of the process. (all in reference to a/the newer med school).