No uni return til Aug/Sept

[Newgirls]

So Edin and St A have said no f2f teaching til next academic year (apart from med and some post-grad) and students should not be there unless v specific needs. Very sad that this cohort are going through this. I assume English unis will follow?

Though if I were a dparent with a yr 13 and reading this thread I would be wondering whether to try to plant the seed of the idea of a gap year! More or less anything, other than staying at home doing nothing, might be worth exploring!

I tried to get my dd to take a year out (gap Yr) but because she's doing a 4 year integrated masters she wasn't interested. I remember doing a post on a forum about my concerns for the uni cohort of 2020 and got slatted because so many parents at that time were hell bent on ensuring that their young adults were able to go to university. They were looking at through rose coloured tinted spectacles but realistically it would have been difficult to stop these students going to university having had 6 months of lockdown last year.

The real concern is the 2021 cohort because I don't think they will be ready for university degrees. Two of dds tutor group of 9 have already dropped out and I think 2 of her 12 housemates have also dropped out.

The reality is , there will a certain type of academic where working from home indefinitely suits them perfectly. Those that do minimal teaching ( professors typically) will be finding working at home a great experience. I always spend my research days at home.
But your bog standard lecturer will have found this experience far more stressful. Teaching for hours online is exhausting and we'd all much prefer to be on campus interacting with our students.
So, when you see a professor advocating for continuing online just keep in mind they may be coming at it from a very different perspective from the rest of us!

@threelittlepandas

I think as per usual unis will follow government advice - they will be kicked quite hard if they dont.

However, it is more complex than just 18year olds feel safe. 50% of students are from overseas - they wouldnt have been vaccinated and might be concerned but these are very important customers who must be kept happy. 50% of students are postgrads - again a whole different dynamic. They dont care as much about a social life etc and postgrad applications are on the up this year.

Social distancing rules at uni will carry on applying until goverment says so. If there are any ongoing restrictions next year, then unis wont be able to provide f2f contact. I am already assuming that lectures might not happen as they require large halls with no social distancing.

To those asking about what staff did - well many used to commute in and frankly have moved/left somewhere cheaper. Lots and lots of my colleagues went home (with kids etc) - often abroad - Italians, Germans etc are in Europe especially as the UK was seen as the basket case of Europe (plus add in Brexit).

British unis (especially good ones) are by now v v v v international both in terms of staff and students - so for them this conversation is not a domestic but an international one.

Interesting. Another academic poster said they were told NOT to work from overseas.

I think if that is the new model then it’s a case of informing students so they can make a decision to stay at home. Rather than this mess we have.

@TheJerkStore

The reality is , there will a certain type of academic where working from home indefinitely suits them perfectly. Those that do minimal teaching ( professors typically) will be finding working at home a great experience. I always spend my research days at home. But your bog standard lecturer will have found this experience far more stressful. Teaching for hours online is exhausting and we'd all much prefer to be on campus interacting with our students. So, when you see a professor advocating for continuing online just keep in mind they may be coming at it from a very different perspective from the rest of us!

Ha yes very true. The one I have in mind seems to do very well with journalism at the moment and that might be where his own interests lie!

The reality is that unis dont know much at this stage. They definitely want students' cash.....beyond that....who knows

@threelittlepandas

The reality is that unis dont know much at this stage. They definitely want students' cash.....beyond that....who knows

Yes so true.

I think my own student would understand if she was told eg term 2 be on campus as your third of the year will do labs. Rest is at home.

To expect students to pay for a years accom without that clarity is unfair.

"The real concern is the 2021 cohort because I don't think they will be ready for university degrees. Two of dds tutor group of 9 have already dropped out and I think 2 of her 12 housemates have also dropped out."

Do you mean not academically ready, Frazzled? That is interesting.

I agree that last year it would have been harder to 'encourage' yr 13s to defer - few other opportunities, but more importantly this had all been sprung on them at close to the last minute. This yr there has been some uncertainty all along, so maybe they are less emotionally committed to going this September 'come what may'. (Whether there are more opportunities to do something else in the gap year remains to be seen.)

Do you mean not academically ready, Frazzled? That is interesting.

Yes, but more in terms of the students opting to take science courses may not have had much practical experience with lab work etc. I know my dd states that a lot of A level work is recovered within the first year of uni but I imagine most students would be advised to sit extra modules that they normally would not have done (eg on my dds course students who did not take Chemistry or achieved A/A at A level have to take an additional Chemistry module.) I can forsee students awarded an A/A but not having covered the full chemistry course (no fault of their own).

I’m a lecturer, although I’ve been on maternity leave since September. I’m really hoping for some f2f when I return after Easter. This is the uni’s current plan, as long as the government allows it.

Almost all my colleagues are hoping for f2f, with one notable exception. Interestingly, students seem much more mixed. I popped into an online departmental society event last week. Some are desperate for f2f, while others are happy in their family homes and say they wouldn’t move back for 4 weeks’ blended learning.

All students in my department had at least 3 hours/week face to face until early December. Some had more, depending on which modules they are doing. If anyone has DC currently applying for uni, I would suggest they try to speak to students currently at their preferred unis, as the amount of f2f has definitely varied.

@Siepie

I’m a lecturer, although I’ve been on maternity leave since September. I’m really hoping for some f2f when I return after Easter. This is the uni’s current plan, as long as the government allows it.

Almost all my colleagues are hoping for f2f, with one notable exception. Interestingly, students seem much more mixed. I popped into an online departmental society event last week. Some are desperate for f2f, while others are happy in their family homes and say they wouldn’t move back for 4 weeks’ blended learning.

All students in my department had at least 3 hours/week face to face until early December. Some had more, depending on which modules they are doing. If anyone has DC currently applying for uni, I would suggest they try to speak to students currently at their preferred unis, as the amount of f2f has definitely varied.

Yes travelling back for 4 weeks is tricky. For my dd she is in uni halls so can get her money back. So not sure how unis would facilitate just 4 weeks accom.

As we know students in y2 onwards in private (and some internationals) are in their accom so I imagine they would welcome the f2f.

On the not to work from overseas point there are various reasons employers may prohibit it eg if you need to get back here quickly but also because there are tax issues. MoneyBox on Radio 4 had an item on it last week where a solicitor from Macfarlanes and other firm set out some of the tax complications - eg if you are abroad too long you may be subject to tax in the country abroad and potentially in the UK too - so two tax liabilities or have trouble claiming back your double tax or you fall outside PAYE entirely for UK tax purposes. Also the employer has to ensure it complies with the laws to which you are subject as an employee so in some cases may need to move you to be hired by their local Spanish subsidiary etc etc. Not simple at all unless it is just for 2 or 3 weeks.

Yes travelling back for 4 weeks is tricky. For my dd she is in uni halls so can get her money back. So not sure how unis would facilitate just 4 weeks accom. As we know students in y2 onwards in private (and some internationals) are in their accom so I imagine they would welcome the f2f.

Not all unis are refunding/not charging for their campus based halls, so their students are in the same boat as those living externally.

@Kazzyhoward

Yes travelling back for 4 weeks is tricky. For my dd she is in uni halls so can get her money back. So not sure how unis would facilitate just 4 weeks accom. As we know students in y2 onwards in private (and some internationals) are in their accom so I imagine they would welcome the f2f.

Not all unis are refunding/not charging for their campus based halls, so their students are in the same boat as those living externally.

She’s been told that her uni will be closed to f2f til august (Scotland). I guess English unis are waiting for the announcement. Although quite a few students I know have gone back already.

If all adults do get a vaccine by July then surely autumn term will be more normal? What a relief!

Although there is the complication of students (and, by the sound of it, staff members) (re)entering the UK who will not have been covered by the vaccination programme in their home country. Or those who have refused - or genuinely been unable to be vaccinated for medical reasons, but this group is relatively small - ? We can't make vaccination a condition of entry, if there is no way that they could have accessed it back home, so will presumably have to ensure that they both self isolate and are offered the vaccine on arrival.

(Much as I hated to say, I told you so to DH, right back when the whole thing was, it'll be okay once all the groups have been vaccinated that account for 90% of hospital admissions / deaths, my first thought was, 'but that won't actually stop people unlikely to be seriously unwell or passing it on to those who are likely to be, from getting Covid-19 or at least testing positive for it, so then it will be, but nothing can be changed, because look, there are still all these cases in the community'. So who's to say that the next stage won't be, Well, we may have vaccinated all those willing to have the vaccine, but look...?).

In the US it is a requirement in some states that university students be vaccinated against a number of diseases, including meningitis. I'm not saying that is the way forward, but I've always found it interesting that such a libertarian country which has such a high number of anti-vaxxers has this policy, which would be unthinkable in the UK.

We can't make vaccination a condition of entry, if there is no way that they could have accessed it back home, so will presumably have to ensure that they both self isolate and are offered the vaccine on arrival.

Every freshers week, my university runs a small vaccination centre for meningitis vaccines, staffed by a local GP surgery. It seems (to me) relatively easy to add covid vaccines for international students for that.

Even with some not taking it the take up is very high (90%?) which will help everyone.

Personally I think unis could insist on it if health allows - as their ‘business’ is impacted if people don’t.

@Siepie

We can't make vaccination a condition of entry, if there is no way that they could have accessed it back home, so will presumably have to ensure that they both self isolate and are offered the vaccine on arrival.

Every freshers week, my university runs a small vaccination centre for meningitis vaccines, staffed by a local GP surgery. It seems (to me) relatively easy to add covid vaccines for international students for that.

I’m sure many would and they don’t have to listen to their anti Vaxer families

Last summer my university decided it would be a good idea if as many staff as possible had the flu vaccine in the autumn (we are offered this, at a charge, annually anyway). They obviously couldn't get hold of enough vaccine, so they failed to advertise it openly to staff and the people who ended up getting it were those who were working from home and not going onto campus. No one who was actually teaching f2f or working on campus even got to hear about it, and it certainly wasn't prioritised in terms of medical need either. Let's hope that if there are vaccination programmes on campus, they are run more fairly than that. It left a really bad taste in the mouth.

@GCAcademic

Last summer my university decided it would be a good idea if as many staff as possible had the flu vaccine in the autumn (we are offered this, at a charge, annually anyway). They obviously couldn't get hold of enough vaccine, so they failed to advertise it openly to staff and the people who ended up getting it were those who were working from home and not going onto campus. No one who was actually teaching f2f or working on campus even got to hear about it, and it certainly wasn't prioritised in terms of medical need either. Let's hope that if there are vaccination programmes on campus, they are run more fairly than that. It left a really bad taste in the mouth.

That does sound rubbish!

At least with covid we all get it and seems to be working well

Yes, I do think the Covid vaccination system is working well and fairly. I hope that once everyone has been vaccinated by the summer, the government starts thinking about universities. It should be entirely within their power to avoid a repeat of this autumn term.

Last summer my university decided it would be a good idea if as many staff as possible had the flu vaccine in the autumn

I didn't bother with it.

I reckoned that the chances of catching flu was minimal considering that we were working in a supposedly covid safe environment.

I probably wouldn't have had it either. It was more the principle of the thing that annoyed me, i.e. managers and PS staff working from home clearly being given first dibs on the limited supply.

@Siepie, yes, that is the way that I would assume it would work, as well.

Re the uptake, unfortunately there do appear to be concerns that although it has been very high in the oldest age groups, this may not necessarily be the same as it works its way down. But fingers crossed...