No uni return til Aug/Sept

[Newgirls]

So Edin and St A have said no f2f teaching til next academic year (apart from med and some post-grad) and students should not be there unless v specific needs. Very sad that this cohort are going through this. I assume English unis will follow?

@Phphion

Representatives of the universities are in constant consultation with the government. What they cannot do, as others in this thread are suggesting, is openly campaign, demand or just flout the rules entirely.

Exactly.

And honestly, you have to bear in mind that if we did (which we can't), if we did say, fuck the govt, we're opening up and you can be on campus, there would be a significant number of students who wouldn't want that.

I think part of the concerns in HE is that if social distancing rules remain in places then they simply wont have the space to teach f2f even next year. Bubbles dont work at uni as students get to pick their modules but the 2meters rule last term meant that we could only teach tiny groups in very large classrooms and therefore we only offered 1hr of f2f teaching per week. It wasnt ideal but without the social distancing rules changing - there is not much that unis can do.

Also unlike other businesses - unis are not only advised by the government but also by their own experts. Almost half of SAGE is from my uni - so our SM are informed by them as well as by government advisers. So my uni stuck to the 2m rules despite some government advice changing it to 1m because they thought that this made more sense.

The questio of whether we are teaching f2f next year does also affect staff. Unless you are lab based, most of our staff dont live in London (cant afford to) - so will need advanced warning to get back to the South East. Staff are also split about whether or not online is better - most prefer teaching f2f but dont miss the commute. Am assuming it will be the same as last year and we wont really know till August.

It has cost and will continue to cost the universities millions and millions of pounds to carry on like this.

And it makes everyone's jobs, from the VC through to the lowest paid cleaners, infinitely more difficult and stressful.

Why would anyone want to carry on like this indefinitely?

Everyone wishes things could be as they were before, but none of us can wish away a pandemic.

@Phphion

The universities are not in a position to take a confrontational stand in relation to the government guidelines. Hard though it is to accept, now is a time for diplomacy.

The financial cost of the pandemic to universities has been catastrophically high. Government support would not only be welcome, for some universities it will be necessary for their survival.

But the restructuring regime proposed by the government in return for loans to bail out universities would see a fundamental change in the relationship between universities and the state that has existed for hundreds of years, and in what we think universities, and education more broadly are for.

The universities don't want that, in fact pretty much noone wants it, except for the current government and its increasingly right-wing advisors. So universities need to be in a position to negotiate, they need to be able to say 'look how we have worked with you, now you work with us'. It is understandable that parents on this thread are thinking only if the experiences of their own children, right now, but that is not the only thing universities need to think about.

That is an interesting view thanks. Yes can understand the unis having own challenges with government. This whole situation opens up more opportunities for a free market for education providers which tories love.

@threelittlepandas

I think part of the concerns in HE is that if social distancing rules remain in places then they simply wont have the space to teach f2f even next year. Bubbles dont work at uni as students get to pick their modules but the 2meters rule last term meant that we could only teach tiny groups in very large classrooms and therefore we only offered 1hr of f2f teaching per week. It wasnt ideal but without the social distancing rules changing - there is not much that unis can do.

Also unlike other businesses - unis are not only advised by the government but also by their own experts. Almost half of SAGE is from my uni - so our SM are informed by them as well as by government advisers. So my uni stuck to the 2m rules despite some government advice changing it to 1m because they thought that this made more sense.

The questio of whether we are teaching f2f next year does also affect staff. Unless you are lab based, most of our staff dont live in London (cant afford to) - so will need advanced warning to get back to the South East. Staff are also split about whether or not online is better - most prefer teaching f2f but dont miss the commute. Am assuming it will be the same as last year and we wont really know till August.

So the uni made their own decision on social distancing?

@threelittlepandas

I think part of the concerns in HE is that if social distancing rules remain in places then they simply wont have the space to teach f2f even next year. Bubbles dont work at uni as students get to pick their modules but the 2meters rule last term meant that we could only teach tiny groups in very large classrooms and therefore we only offered 1hr of f2f teaching per week. It wasnt ideal but without the social distancing rules changing - there is not much that unis can do.

Also unlike other businesses - unis are not only advised by the government but also by their own experts. Almost half of SAGE is from my uni - so our SM are informed by them as well as by government advisers. So my uni stuck to the 2m rules despite some government advice changing it to 1m because they thought that this made more sense.

The questio of whether we are teaching f2f next year does also affect staff. Unless you are lab based, most of our staff dont live in London (cant afford to) - so will need advanced warning to get back to the South East. Staff are also split about whether or not online is better - most prefer teaching f2f but dont miss the commute. Am assuming it will be the same as last year and we wont really know till August.

I think this is one of the most honest answers here. If people can work at home and save commuting costs etc then of course they favour that. Of course those in campus based services eg catering don’t have that luxury and will lose jobs. But completely understand - I have saved a fortune in not getting the train. But of course many students will not benefit from this approach.

Also over half of our students are from overseas - so a lot of the conversations (as was the case last year) will be about capturing the international student market as much as the domestic one. They pay more and are more valuable. So it will be about whether or not our Chinese students would rather come to London or not etc etc etc

Are uni’s actively lobbying government behind the scenes to reduce restrictions and open up a bit and get students back though? I don’t get that impression at. I’d love to hear a VC on the today show telling us what his uni is doing to get students back ASAP and encourage future students to come.
And re. Students feeling “unsafe” that is the messaging they get from us, the adults.
Messaging in this really needs to change. Students are so low risk, many are asymptomatic. We all say follow the science but on this we seem to think it’s ok that students get the message they are unsafe being on a uni campus. What are uni’s doing about this messaging? How are they reassuring the students? Are they actively telling them what a low risk they are? Or do they quite like the situation with students feeling “ unsafe” as it suits them for students to feel this way?

@sashagabadon

Are uni’s actively lobbying government behind the scenes to reduce restrictions and open up a bit and get students back though? I don’t get that impression at. I’d love to hear a VC on the today show telling us what his uni is doing to get students back ASAP and encourage future students to come. And re. Students feeling “unsafe” that is the messaging they get from us, the adults. Messaging in this really needs to change. Students are so low risk, many are asymptomatic. We all say follow the science but on this we seem to think it’s ok that students get the message they are unsafe being on a uni campus. What are uni’s doing about this messaging? How are they reassuring the students? Are they actively telling them what a low risk they are? Or do they quite like the situation with students feeling “ unsafe” as it suits them for students to feel this way?

Personally I don’t know a single student who feels unsafe. Most feel invincible and some got covid before Xmas. I realise there are plenty of students with health issues who don’t feel like this. But surely 18-21 are broadly the least worried group?

Exactly new girl. It’s all a smoke screen.

@sashagabadon - the problem is that unis really only want students back for their cash. I mean I've heard from SM that our uni is considering going ahead with blended learning but to also encourage students to come to London next year. The reality of modern day university is that unis want student cash but not the students - so apart from the cash element of it, why would they lobby.

@Newgirls thats not strictly speaking true. And again keep in mind that 50% of students are international ones. Many of my Chinese students didnt feel safe to come to London. Last year we stopped teaching only because our student union forced us to, senior management were happy for us to carry on.

I think part of the concerns in HE is that if social distancing rules remain in places then they simply wont have the space to teach f2f even next year.

Agree. Social distancing is the biggest problem for f2f. Up to Christmas, we were able continue with f2f for small groups and individuals but only because large f2f group activities were replaced with an online alternative.

This is a particular problem for my department where f2f contact time is normally higher than average.

Why would anyone want to carry on like this indefinitely?

Also struggling to understand why anyone would think this.

@Newgirls in terms of social distancing - yes, we stuck to 2m rather 1m - i mean our SM were obviously right to do so seeing as clearly covid didnt go away and the Kent variety is much more transmissable. They are also within their right as an employer to set their own rules for staff.

Well it absolutely doesn't suit us to carry on like this indefinitely!
Nor us!!

Representatives of the universities are in constant consultation with the government. What they cannot do, as others in this thread are suggesting, is openly campaign, demand or just flout the rules entirely.
100% this. Just because it isn't happening publically doesn't mean it isn't taking place. The media hates the HE sector so there is no benefit to VCs or academics going on TV or the radio because the media narrative around HE is so toxic it will do far more harm than good.

I think part of the concerns in HE is that if social distancing rules remain in places then they simply wont have the space to teach f2f even next year. Bubbles dont work at uni as students get to pick their modules but the 2meters rule last term meant that we could only teach tiny groups in very large classrooms and therefore we only offered 1hr of f2f teaching per week. It wasnt ideal but without the social distancing rules changing - there is not much that unis can do.

And this is what people need to understand. We were in the fortunate position to be able to offer 3 hours on campus ( more for my students) but while social distancing is in place there really isn't much we can do.

And re. Students feeling “unsafe” that is the messaging they get from us, the adults.
Messaging in this really needs to change. Students are so low risk, many are asymptomatic. We all say follow the science but on this we seem to think it’s ok that students get the message they are unsafe being on a uni campus. What are uni’s doing about this messaging? How are they reassuring the students? Are they actively telling them what a low risk they are? Or do they quite like the situation with students feeling “ unsafe” as it suits them for students to feel this way?

Our message was always that campus was safe. We weren't allowed to move courses fully online until the government told us to because we were told that undermined our message about our covid safe campus. Our VC was very clear about that.
The issue is space and staffing - while social distancing is in place we simply don't have the space on campus to teach large groups. We either have to run smaller groups and teach multiple times ( which requires staff we don't have) or offer more online provision. If the rules change on social distancing then we can do more on campus.

@sashagabadon

Exactly new girl. It’s all a smoke screen.

a smoke screen for what??

You've got people on here who actually work at universities explaining the reality. Why are you unwilling to listen?

"Unless you are lab based, most of our staff dont live in London (cant afford to) - so will need advanced warning to get back to the South East."

What did they do before - if they commuted, does that require much advance warning?

Personally I don’t know a single student who feels unsafe. Most feel invincible and some got covid before Xmas. I realise there are plenty of students with health issues who don’t feel like this. But surely 18-21 are broadly the least worried group?

For sure, lots aren't worried at all, and were very open about the fact that they weren't socially distancing in halls. And of course that made it all the more worrying for those of us who had to be in contact with them - as did the fact that many of them will indeed be asymptomatic!

But yes, I had lots of emails from students saying sorry, I just don't want to be on campus. Their responses to all this are as varied as those of any other group, as you'd expect.

The university most definitely tells them they're safe on campus - they told us all that.

@Phphion

It has cost and will continue to cost the universities millions and millions of pounds to carry on like this.

And it makes everyone's jobs, from the VC through to the lowest paid cleaners, infinitely more difficult and stressful.

Why would anyone want to carry on like this indefinitely?

Everyone wishes things could be as they were before, but none of us can wish away a pandemic.

Unless the vaccines don't actually work as planned, given all adults will have been offered the vaccine before the Uni start date, there's no justification at all for Uni's not returning to "normal" from the end of September. I understand that Uni's will want to do "contingency" planning in case vaccines don't have the effect hoped for, but if they do, Uni's really need to be back to normal. A sensible precaution would be for students to have two covid tests on arrival and for staff to be tested every couple of weeks or, just to check that infections are at the same low level as in the wider community. Why would we need social distancing at all in lecturers/rooms etc if staff and students have been vaccinated? Yes, there'll be a minority who can't have the jab for medical reasons, but you can't "protect" literally every single person if it harms the vast majority - the tiny minority who can't have the jab will have to have individual risk assessments, individual plans for their work/study, etc (as would be the case for other disabilities etc).

The pandemic has certainly highlighted that there is a lot of unfairness within the whole university experience. I think universities probably take advantage of the fact that 18 Yr olds are very keen to leave home and be independent so accept what is offered which isn't always fair in terms of level of education offered and accommodation costs. There probably needs to be a set of standards that need to be met to justify the tution fees..likewise accommodation.

But surely 18-21 are broadly the least worried group?

Not all students fall into this age category.

"The issue is space and staffing - while social distancing is in place we simply don't have the space on campus to teach large groups."

Do universities (and other places) need social distancing though once all adults have been offered the chance to be vaccinated? Which may be the case by September. (I realise this is part of a much wider debate! And also that some people may not be able to have the vaccine.)

Interesting point that HE going on the media does it more harm than good! I suppose that is different from lobbying quietly though (which we the public wouldn't hear about). One of the things though is that we hear constantly from some groups - and not others - so the debate is perhaps not as wide ranging as it could be. It was interesting to see newspaper coverage yesterday about students.

For sure, lots aren't worried at all, and were very open about the fact that they weren't socially distancing in halls. And of course that made it all the more worrying for those of us who had to be in contact with them - as did the fact that many of them will indeed be asymptomatic!

Depends on what you mean by "halls"? Students can't "social distance" in their communal living areas, such as kitchens, lounges, etc - they're classed as a "household" or bubble. A lot of the spread of covid in some Unis was more down to 10/12/16 students sharing tiny kitchens and cramped lounges than wild partying! Some Unis were pretty stupid in crowded students into flats whilst at the same time having other flats left empty. Covid wouldn't have spread had the Unis spread the students around all their flats, i.e. lower occupancy in all flats rather than full occupancy in some flats and leaving others empty. My son's Uni had entire floors empty, and even some entire blocks, whilst at the same time, the occupied flats were at their full capacity. That's what spread covid in my son's flat - they weren't out partying (my son doesn't even drink) - it spread through his, and other, flats, via the communal living areas.

I think a lot of unis are saying/hoping/claiming that everything will be basically normal by September - obviously that's as uncertain as the situation for the whole country, and nobody can really know, but however normal things are at large, that's how normal they'll be on campuses, I suppose.

@user1497207191

For sure, lots aren't worried at all, and were very open about the fact that they weren't socially distancing in halls. And of course that made it all the more worrying for those of us who had to be in contact with them - as did the fact that many of them will indeed be asymptomatic!

Depends on what you mean by "halls"? Students can't "social distance" in their communal living areas, such as kitchens, lounges, etc - they're classed as a "household" or bubble. A lot of the spread of covid in some Unis was more down to 10/12/16 students sharing tiny kitchens and cramped lounges than wild partying! Some Unis were pretty stupid in crowded students into flats whilst at the same time having other flats left empty. Covid wouldn't have spread had the Unis spread the students around all their flats, i.e. lower occupancy in all flats rather than full occupancy in some flats and leaving others empty. My son's Uni had entire floors empty, and even some entire blocks, whilst at the same time, the occupied flats were at their full capacity. That's what spread covid in my son's flat - they weren't out partying (my son doesn't even drink) - it spread through his, and other, flats, via the communal living areas.

I suppose a combination of not being able to, in some cases, and actively not doing in some others (a minority, I'm sure).