No uni return til Aug/Sept

[Newgirls]

So Edin and St A have said no f2f teaching til next academic year (apart from med and some post-grad) and students should not be there unless v specific needs. Very sad that this cohort are going through this. I assume English unis will follow?

My personal view is that the uni’s SM and some of their staff love working from home and not being on campus. They don’t need to commute as someone has mentioned up thread and they are enjoying their work life balance too much and they want it to carry on as long as they can get away with. That’s how it looks to me as a prospective parent deciding on whether my daughter goes this year or not.
As others have mentioned students are just a cash cow and actually their experience matters very little. Universities are using students feeling “unsafe” as their smokescreen for keeping the current status quo. I don’t mean individuals on here at all, I mean the whole system.
And that is depressing to me that more isn’t being done to fight for the students.
I pretty much think this will continue for 21/22 as there is no pressure from anywhere for it to stop.
If students were vaccinated by august, would universities change their position on f2f or just move the goal posts again do you all think?

My personal view is that the uni’s SM and some of their staff love working from home and not being on campus. They don’t need to commute as someone has mentioned up thread and they are enjoying their work life balance too much and they want it to carry on as long as they can get away with. That’s how it looks to me as a prospective parent deciding on whether my daughter goes this year or not

What's that personal view based on?

If students were vaccinated by august, would universities change their position on f2f or just move the goal posts again do you all think?

Can't speak for everywhere but I think we'll be doing teaching on campus whether any of us and students are vaccinated or not, like we did up to early December.

My personal view is that the uni’s SM and some of their staff love working from home and not being on campus. They don’t need to commute as someone has mentioned up thread and they are enjoying their work life balance too much and they want it to carry on as long as they can get away with. That’s how it looks to me as a prospective parent deciding on whether my daughter goes this year or not.

My personal view ( as an academic working at a university) is the complete opposite. I have zero work life balance at the moment - I literally work everyday. Not being on campus makes my life much more difficult and stressful and I can't wait to get back on to campus and teach my students in real life. Lots of us have told you think but you choose to ignore it.

As others have mentioned students are just a cash cow and actually their experience matters very little. Universities are using students feeling “unsafe” as their smokescreen for keeping the current status quo. I don’t mean individuals on here at all, I mean the whole system.
And that is depressing to me that more isn’t being done to fight for the students.
Unfortunately the way the government chooses to fund universities means that we do need students in order to survive. However, student experience is VERY important at a lot of universities and has certainly been front and central at my university for a long time

I pretty much think this will continue for 21/22 as there is no pressure from anywhere for it to stop.
We don't know what will happen yet. We are still waiting for guidance. But the impression I'm getting from inside the sector is we want to get back to normal as quickly as possible.

If students were vaccinated by august, would universities change their position on f2f or just move the goal posts again do you all think?
Ask the government what they'd like us to do. ........

Actually my daughter has had no face to face teaching at all this academic year and many of her
on line lectures have also been cancelled at very short notice with no explanation. She is 3rd year so missed most of last year too because of the strikes. It's been a bad deal for her.

I think as per usual unis will follow government advice - they will be kicked quite hard if they dont.

However, it is more complex than just 18year olds feel safe. 50% of students are from overseas - they wouldnt have been vaccinated and might be concerned but these are very important customers who must be kept happy. 50% of students are postgrads - again a whole different dynamic. They dont care as much about a social life etc and postgrad applications are on the up this year.

Social distancing rules at uni will carry on applying until goverment says so. If there are any ongoing restrictions next year, then unis wont be able to provide f2f contact. I am already assuming that lectures might not happen as they require large halls with no social distancing.

To those asking about what staff did - well many used to commute in and frankly have moved/left somewhere cheaper. Lots and lots of my colleagues went home (with kids etc) - often abroad - Italians, Germans etc are in Europe especially as the UK was seen as the basket case of Europe (plus add in Brexit).

British unis (especially good ones) are by now v v v v international both in terms of staff and students - so for them this conversation is not a domestic but an international one.

Ah, I cross posted with the user about 'don't vaccines dispense with the need for social distancing?'!

(subject to mutations I suppose - maybe that is the reason some universities are talking about staying online for 21/22.)

@Frazzled6

The pandemic has certainly highlighted that there is a lot of unfairness within the whole university experience. I think universities probably take advantage of the fact that 18 Yr olds are very keen to leave home and be independent so accept what is offered which isn't always fair in terms of level of education offered and accommodation costs. There probably needs to be a set of standards that need to be met to justify the tution fees..likewise accommodation.

I think Uni's are struggling to adapt to the, entirely reasonable, demands from students for value for money, when they're paying £9250 per year for tuition and typically £6000 for a tiny flat with shared facilities!

Uni's are run by (obviously) older people who would have had their Uni experiences 20/30+ years ago before tuition fees were so high, when they got grants rather than loans for living costs, and when accommodation was a lot cheaper (usually far more basic to justify that).

There still seems to be an attitude from management that students should "put up with it", which is what they had to do 20/30 years ago. Students nowadays, when they're paying £15k p.a. (more if from overseas) want value for money. Students are a captive audience - Unis are pulling out all the stops to get them signed up (open days, outreach services, etc), but once you're contracted, it's basically "suck it up".

I can see that a lot of universities are going to see their student satisfaction survey results plummet due to 2020. Some Unis seem to have done really well coping with it, whilst others just lurch from one crisis (of their own making) to another. Just look at campus accommodation - some unis have freely offered discounts/refunds or early termination of flats - others basically did nothing until students started rent strikes. Also food whilst isolating - some unis provided free basic food, others wanted to charge a whopping £17 per day for a basic food box. Like I say, satisfaction surveys will highlight which did well and which did badly, and that WILL affect future applications as modern students look at review sites/survey results etc.

@threelittlepandas

I think as per usual unis will follow government advice - they will be kicked quite hard if they dont.

However, it is more complex than just 18year olds feel safe. 50% of students are from overseas - they wouldnt have been vaccinated and might be concerned but these are very important customers who must be kept happy. 50% of students are postgrads - again a whole different dynamic. They dont care as much about a social life etc and postgrad applications are on the up this year.

Social distancing rules at uni will carry on applying until goverment says so. If there are any ongoing restrictions next year, then unis wont be able to provide f2f contact. I am already assuming that lectures might not happen as they require large halls with no social distancing.

To those asking about what staff did - well many used to commute in and frankly have moved/left somewhere cheaper. Lots and lots of my colleagues went home (with kids etc) - often abroad - Italians, Germans etc are in Europe especially as the UK was seen as the basket case of Europe (plus add in Brexit).

British unis (especially good ones) are by now v v v v international both in terms of staff and students - so for them this conversation is not a domestic but an international one.

Let's just hope Unis are honest with their current and prospective students then, if they have lecturers living abroad and already know that they won't be returning to campus. Uni's won't get away with lying to students (again) like some did last August/September promising "blended" learning when they knew damn well they wouldn't be doing it!

@user1497207191 but the reality is that British 18-year-olds will put up with it. They are a captured market. You still cant get even an office job with the damn degree - so what they going to do instead. And unis are trying to work in unison so they will all do more or less the same thing. My uni constantly waits to see what the rest of the Russell group do before making any announcements so as not to miss out.

If unis change anything then it will often be for the international rather than domestic market.

Also 9k is really not that much. It costs a lot more than that to train some students and many students' 9k cross subsidizes other courses

I pretty much think this will continue for 21/22 as there is no pressure from anywhere for it to stop.

There'll be lots of pressure from the students for a return to "normal".

My personal view ( as an academic working at a university) is the complete opposite. I have zero work life balance at the moment - I literally work everyday. Not being on campus makes my life much more difficult and stressful and I can't wait to get back on to campus and teach my students in real life. Lots of us have told you think but you choose to ignore it.

Hear, hear.

@user1497207191 - they wont be honest with the students nor staff. Staff dont have any guarantees about next year either. We maybe be recalled at the last minute or not. Who knows.....

And I am not saying this as someone who loves online - I live 30mins walk from my job and havent been on campus since last March and dont like online. But I dont get a say on this.

[quote threelittlepandas]@user1497207191 but the reality is that British 18-year-olds will put up with it. They are a captured market. You still cant get even an office job with the damn degree - so what they going to do instead. And unis are trying to work in unison so they will all do more or less the same thing. My uni constantly waits to see what the rest of the Russell group do before making any announcements so as not to miss out.

If unis change anything then it will often be for the international rather than domestic market.

Also 9k is really not that much. It costs a lot more than that to train some students and many students' 9k cross subsidizes other courses[/quote]
There are different pathways into lots of professions such as accountancy and law, which don't need degrees.

There's also the Open University, offering a pretty similar online "experience" for a fraction of the cost.

*"To those asking about what staff did - well many used to commute in and frankly have moved/left somewhere cheaper. Lots and lots of my colleagues went home (with kids etc) - often abroad - Italians, Germans etc are in Europe especially as the UK was seen as the basket case of Europe (plus add in Brexit).

British unis (especially good ones) are by now v v v v international both in terms of staff and students - so for them this conversation is not a domestic but an international one."*

Yes, that was I who was asking about what the staff did before - that is really interesting that many have returned abroad. Did the universities suggest to them that they might be asked to get back to teach ftf later in the academic year? - I can't imagine that in January anyone would have assumed ftf would definitely be abandoned for the next two terms? (by ftf I mean 'live on campus' - realise this can be confusing!) Or maybe they did.

And to the other academics - I also hate it! But I chose to live really close to work so my commute was shorter and I can do picks up so my usual setup was ok unlike my colleagues. However, my housing costs are sooooo high that I've been a bit bitter having to pay this much but not going in.

@Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead - we were told last summer that no one would be forced to come on campus. So internationals moved abroad in the summer - knowing they wont be needed for the year. The only question is whether they will be required to come back 21-20. Apparently we'll get some memo next week - who knows

21-22

@TheMerrickBoy

My personal view is that the uni’s SM and some of their staff love working from home and not being on campus. They don’t need to commute as someone has mentioned up thread and they are enjoying their work life balance too much and they want it to carry on as long as they can get away with. That’s how it looks to me as a prospective parent deciding on whether my daughter goes this year or not

What's that personal view based on?

If students were vaccinated by august, would universities change their position on f2f or just move the goal posts again do you all think?

Can't speak for everywhere but I think we'll be doing teaching on campus whether any of us and students are vaccinated or not, like we did up to early December.

From reading threads like this, my student relatives, my professor brother in law, my daughter and her friends, looking around campuses in the last few days, not hearing any pressure coming from universities on the radio, or in the newspapers, reading Mumsnet, and my own thoughts on it too. As I said, it’s my own opinion and I hope it changes between now and August.

"@Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead - we were told last summer that no one would be forced to come on campus."

I see. For the whole academic year?

I think the pandas is right about the 18 yr olds' lack of bargaining power. Dparents may be more forthright, but they don't have much direct influence either - and also don't want to be too much of a downer on their 18 yr olds' aspirations. Though if I were a dparent with a yr 13 and reading this thread I would be wondering whether to try to plant the seed of the idea of a gap year! More or less anything, other than staying at home doing nothing, might be worth exploring!

@Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead - yes for the year hence my colleagues left. my colleagues all have family/kids etc so took them out of schools, put them in other ones etc (often abroad). The key thing is they were told they wont be forced to come on campus - my uni was still trying to do f2f teaching till Dec - though whether that one hr per week for 1st years was really worth it, am not sure.

I would not be against the British public having more engagement with unis - but...the reality is that govt refused to bail them out so unis are losing money even though they are online. Plus as I said before some students are more valuable than others but not the ones most people think. It's the postgrads (who pay more) plus international ones (who pay more) that have some 'power'.....18year old British ones a lot less. But thats the reality of the HE sector in the UK.

"It's the postgrads (who pay more) plus international ones (who pay more) that have some 'power'.....18year old British ones a lot less. But thats the reality of the HE sector in the UK."

A useful perspective!

[quote threelittlepandas]@Newgirls thats not strictly speaking true. And again keep in mind that 50% of students are international ones. Many of my Chinese students didnt feel safe to come to London. Last year we stopped teaching only because our student union forced us to, senior management were happy for us to carry on.[/quote]
Yes of course and last year was so country specific. American parents seem perfectly fine to encourage students to say Scotland, but other countries eg China have a dif approach.

Just had an advert for Kings College online degree pop up on my phone. It’s lower years but of course institutions will be now marketing their brands to international students in dif ways.

I personally have just done a course (online!) with a London uni in business. Three years ago I did a similar one at my local uni. Now I can shop around - small fry as only cost £275 but it is all changing.

@TheJerkStore

My personal view is that the uni’s SM and some of their staff love working from home and not being on campus. They don’t need to commute as someone has mentioned up thread and they are enjoying their work life balance too much and they want it to carry on as long as they can get away with. That’s how it looks to me as a prospective parent deciding on whether my daughter goes this year or not.

My personal view ( as an academic working at a university) is the complete opposite. I have zero work life balance at the moment - I literally work everyday. Not being on campus makes my life much more difficult and stressful and I can't wait to get back on to campus and teach my students in real life. Lots of us have told you think but you choose to ignore it.

As others have mentioned students are just a cash cow and actually their experience matters very little. Universities are using students feeling “unsafe” as their smokescreen for keeping the current status quo. I don’t mean individuals on here at all, I mean the whole system.
And that is depressing to me that more isn’t being done to fight for the students.
Unfortunately the way the government chooses to fund universities means that we do need students in order to survive. However, student experience is VERY important at a lot of universities and has certainly been front and central at my university for a long time

I pretty much think this will continue for 21/22 as there is no pressure from anywhere for it to stop.
We don't know what will happen yet. We are still waiting for guidance. But the impression I'm getting from inside the sector is we want to get back to normal as quickly as possible.

If students were vaccinated by august, would universities change their position on f2f or just move the goal posts again do you all think?
Ask the government what they'd like us to do. ........

This is very positive to hear.

I know one of my dds prof is on sage and is very vocal about not doing f2f but I’m heartened to hear that many others don’t share his approach.

[quote threelittlepandas]@Newgirls in terms of social distancing - yes, we stuck to 2m rather 1m - i mean our SM were obviously right to do so seeing as clearly covid didnt go away and the Kent variety is much more transmissable. They are also within their right as an employer to set their own rules for staff.[/quote]
Yes of course. It does show that some unis have done things their own way and not completely at the behest of government.

[quote threelittlepandas]@Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead - yes for the year hence my colleagues left. my colleagues all have family/kids etc so took them out of schools, put them in other ones etc (often abroad). The key thing is they were told they wont be forced to come on campus - my uni was still trying to do f2f teaching till Dec - though whether that one hr per week for 1st years was really worth it, am not sure.

I would not be against the British public having more engagement with unis - but...the reality is that govt refused to bail them out so unis are losing money even though they are online. Plus as I said before some students are more valuable than others but not the ones most people think. It's the postgrads (who pay more) plus international ones (who pay more) that have some 'power'.....18year old British ones a lot less. But thats the reality of the HE sector in the UK.[/quote]
Yes very true. London unis and the most famous have a high percentage of international but others have up to 90% domestic students so that I’m sure is influencing their decision making