Another path to greatnesses

[chopc]

I woke up around 4:30 this morning and it hit me like a tonne of bricks. Couldn't get back to sleep so thought I will have a go and starting the new thread. Hope the title is not too cheesy

Thank you @OnTheBenchOfDoom for the great share, that's a very good overview of Durham and how I remember if from my handful of visits.

The most important thing is to really look at the modules on offer, the books/articles that the lecturers have written and who the current PhD students are as they will do a lot the first-year seminar teaching at RG universities. The publications will give an indication of the approach to teaching and/or critical methodologies that are likely to underpin the 2nd and 3rd-year teaching.

As an undergrad, I rejected Durham because its first-year modules were not interesting to me, and went for an RG London university as their module offers were far more aligned with my interests and, at the time, were more current. This has likely changed in 15 years, but my point is that the module choices are very important. I turned down another two RG offers as I hated their location and culture (too provincial). These may or may not be important to your DC, but they were to me. It is essential that your DC work out what they value in their university experience.

Teaching everywhere is much improved, but it’s still pretty ropey at some RG universities. Some more than others have worked on their approaches to teaching, so it is worth looking at that. Be prepared that a number of them have almost no contact time, not much pastoral support and the teaching can rely on the reading out of old lectures. In one memorable case, a prof just opened up their book and read out a chapter each week as a lecture series.

I recommend that your DC watch “why I hate x university” along with the positive ones and think critically about whether they would be affected similarly, or whether the negative points are irrelevant to your DC. For eg, I deliberately chose somewhere that left you to it, as I wanted freedom. I had a great time, getting involved in all kinds of social and sporting things outside of my degree because I like to go and do my own thing and because I could skip class (tutors didn’t care) and still get a first-class degree. It was a disaster for my flatmate, though, who just wasted their time at university and did/saw/achieved very little despite being very bright. They just moped around for days at a time and would have been better at a campus university with more structured involvement.

Definitely do not go for name above the course, academic structure, pastoral care and city/campus culture.

(I am a lecturer in Arts and Hums and have studied and taught at both RG and non-RG universities).

What universities hand hold? Surely none being discussed here? Nor are the dc the types to skip lectures. None sound the type to me.

Modules change. The idea that a top uni resurgence has nothing to interest you is an odd idea. To me anyway. DD barely bothered to look! She wanted the best university possible. However she didn’t intend to teach where it possibly doesn’t matter where you go or how easy it is to get a first whilst skipping lectures. Hopefully no one skips yours!

resurgence!!! I have no idea where that came from! Too universities have such a wide choice of modules, there should be something for everyone!

You have missed pretty much everything that I had to say, which is that there are multiple factors which predicate a successful and happy academic career. For some, there will be certain aspects of the subject that are of greater value or passion than others.

As it happens, I have won awards for my teaching because I saw (and, at times, experienced) how poor some university lecturing could be. Before that, I won prizes for graduating top in my year and had funding for my PhD.

Teaching at RGs can also be engaging and nuanced and introduce the latest thinking in a subject, but your DC should do along the lines that I set out: what are the lecturers’ current funded research projects and recent publications. Is that what they want to study? The degree offered by UCL is going to be different in teaching and methodology from Warwick or Durham, as it will be from KCL.

I happened to be exceptionally motivated to self study and was pleased to be in an environment where that was permitted and I wasn’t being monitored. That did not suit my flatmate. Horses for courses and other cliches apply.

The culture of each RG university is wildly different and your DC should go for the best academic and social fit, not just the highest ranked. The difference in terms of outcome in employment between a London RG and Durham or Warwick, for eg, are pretty much nil, but the university education and experience will be very different and will suit some for one and others for another.

You can be hostile towards me if you like, but I was giving my take as someone who has helped hundreds of young people along their academic careers and I really have seen that there is more to it than just going to the next highest ranked, which varies subject to subject anyway - by which I mean the LSE is highest ranked for some subjects; Imperial for others; Durham for others. The top 15-20 are all pretty even in their academic standing, but the degree content and delivery will be very different. However, finding the right fit for an individual is more complicated than picking the one that is top of the table, and factors such as curiosity in and passion for the subject’s modules and the general enjoyment of the way that the university works will be vital in the decision.

I am not pro or anti any university, merely suggesting that a holistic approach is advisable in the decision-making process.

Here is a picture of Bristol castle. Thought it might be a welcome distraction. I never knew it had a castle !

@OnTheBenchOfDoom that's a fab video gives a bit of insight in to Durham will show my dd as doesn't look like we be going up to see it anytime soon.

And fab news for you ds @Pumpkintopf 😊

Thanks @OnTheBenchOfDoom and @par05 very happy for him.

@mumsneedwine wow!! All that and a castle too? Definitely enrolling 

@Notanotherusernamenow I think that's very interesting, particularly the suggestion to look at what the academics are researching- it's realistic to expect that these will be the areas they want dc to focus on for final year projects etc I guess?

All those universities talked of on this thread are good as said above.As places like UCL, Durham, Bristol are equally as good for that then whatever matters to the student can then go centre stage. Eg 3 of mine chose Bristol over Durham because we live in London (and they ruled out London because we live here and they wanted a change). Those are subjective reasons. It was also quicker to get home (which might be useful in covid 19 times even more so if people are back and forth due to lock downs never mind cost of travel).

People tend to mix with those with whom they live in particular - not exclusively - my youngest son's degree has field trips and all sorts including the weekend before they start (or did in non covid days) so his fellow subject students also had a lot of friendships too. So looking at there they might be living, halls, colleges (for Durham) might help people decide.

I think the biggest difference is between the London experience and the out of London one for those institutions mentioned here. We live in outer London and some of my sons' friends went to London ones and had a great time, much more contact with international students, people from all over the world and very mixed (important for my sons' friends as their school is majority not white with lots of Asians - my son was the only white boy in his class at one point). I think London can be a bit more spread out and rents are higher. Some of the best UK universities are in London so I am certainly not saying avoid those.

I also think it’s imperative not to use our own experience! I’ve seen posters saying, “X is full of bumptious posh people” or “Y isn’t academically top of the tree” - maybe in the 1980s . Things have changed.

Different universities have risen up the ranks or fallen out of favour. The demographics are probably different. I still can’t get over students wanting to live in comfortable accommodation . I ask you! When I was at university The Young Ones was the gold standard experience and a horrible student house was a badge of honour.

Ha ha @IrmaFayLear so true!! They want (gasp) en suites now!!!

@Pumpkintopf great news, well done to your ds! Funny they should send it out on Sunday night but what a lovely lift to the weekend.

Dd has spent the weekend flitting between Exeter and Durham as her first choice. She's put in her submission form for Durham colleges, her favourite two are Cuthbert's and Chad's. Anyone know anything about these?

Of course it could well be irrelevant as still no offer from Durham. Out of interest, when do Durham start to send out rejections? Do they wait until all the offers are out? I wish they'd put students out of their misery.

Actually my DD1 didn’t. This is why shared bathrooms attract boarding school dc! They are used to sharing. Wills at Bristol shares a bathroom between 6 in the quad I think. So for the more rough and ready types I think.

@mumsneedwine Thank you for the photos.

I am very much against students nit picking at every module on offer. It’s never a given that lecturer you desperately want is going to be there at all! They go off for a year to research further. They even have babies!

Employers outside lecturing won’t care if you studied Jane Eyre to oblivion or are a whizz on Enid Blyton. They will have their own skills tests and often traditionally taught DC at universities with fewer firsts actually do very well. So it’s always best to aim high. No one on this thread who applied to Oxbridge is not aiming high with regard to other choices. I assume it’s because they recognise the value of these universities.

That doesn’t mean non RG should be overlooked. Some of the courses at Bath, Lancaster and Loughborough, to single out 3, are excellent substitutes for certain subjects.

In general though, Oxbridge applicants are not going to look at lower ranked universities just to get an easy life. In fact having a rigorous course that stretches the student to discover new things is a big bonus and grows the mind. At 17/18 being against topics and privately educated pupils is immaturity. Hopefully university allows young people to grow into balanced individuals.

@bendmeoverbackwards
What is your DD studying?

[quote PresentingPercy]@bendmeoverbackwards
What is your DD studying?[/quote]
Ancient and Modern History

Thanks bend much appreciated

Pumpkin, I just saw you news - wow and congratulations!!! That’s fantastic news. I hope you’re celebrating today?

@bendmeoverbackwards I stumbled upon Jack Edwards years ago as he was part of the "StudyTube" ie students who relish study, gave hints and tips as to how to revise for GCSEs as I was trying to help Ds1 which feels like a lifetime ago.

Jack actually did English at Durham and lived in Cuths. Here is his moving in video, room tour, matriculation etc

Hope this helps, there are loads of rooms tours on YouTube from Durham students. I found it helpful.

@Notanotherusernamenow I do understand why you would say I recommend that your DC watch “why I hate x university" and I have watched these but I sometimes think it isn't about the university itself it is about the person and their expectations. I have watched girls whine on about the lack of shopping in Durham for clothes, or I expected it to be like my London school with lots of black students, or it cost £9 for an uber to Tesco and wah wah I can't afford to do that every week. Errr don't!

Ds thinks it is hysterically funny when someone does their room tour and complains that their en-suite is small, and clearly their diamond shoes are too tight and their purses are too small for their fifties. I am not just talking about Durham either. Maybe it is just the type of person who has a YouTube account who gets a platform to say these things.

It reminds me of a note my prof had on his door which said lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part, that was almost 30 years ago I think some students just don't do enough research and then complain about stuff that could have been found if they looked.

Just catching up. HUGE congratulations @Pumpkintopf. Has that taken the edge off the sting?

DS has online exams this week and I was reflecting yesterday how much less stressed he is about them. I think we've got to take the wins where we can, and it's lovely to see the pressure has lifted a little. (Doesn't stop ME worrying about the shit show that could follow the use of TAGs of course, but he doesn't need to know that)

I'm enjoying the support on this thread. I personally am enjoying the 'debating' less. However well intentioned, I'm not sure it's what those of us 'finding paths' following the Oxbridge 'redirections' are looking for really. But I know, public forum and all that.

Love that quote @OnTheBenchOfDoom! I might put it on the kitchen wall.

I agree with Notanotherusernamenow, though perhaps with the caveat that it has to be about what you want to get from your time at University.

(And with a certain amount of trepidation. My contribution is designed to be constructive and represents my observation, which may or may not be general.)

Different students will give different priorities different weightings. DS was 95% about the course. He wanted a highly quantitative economics course and would have gone anywhere as long as the course was right, and he was surrounded by people who shared his interests. His friends in his first year were very varied: other first year, but also second and third years and postgraduates. No one from his hall. The right course paid off, not least in terms of well recognised referees who carried clout on PhD and RA applications.

But that is someone who always wanted to research. Most students are aiming to launch good careers, but also have a full student experience: whether sports, music, drama, May Balls or clubbing. Some will be self starters, others not, including some for whom the temptations of being away from home for the first time will be too enticing. For some, the prestige of the institution will matter when it comes to seeking employment, whilst for others, employers will be more interested in the technical skills and knowledge they gained.

DD is in London this year for her intercalation, in a department which is almost certainly the top ranked in the UK if not in Europe. It is very different, demanding, international (lots of Europeans in particular) and very research orientated. Despite lockdown the course has been well organised and she is really enjoying it. But she is 22, not 18 and this approach is right for her now. (I assume this will be true of others who are on their fourth year including Xenia's DC.) There is some snobbishness from a small number of students about her "only" being from Bristol, which has amused her. (Some envy as well, and questions about whether Bristol lives up to its party reputation.) Bristol's relatively vocational teaching approach suited DD, and kept doors open for her to investigate a research track if that's what she wants to do, whilst being obviously good enough for a successful professional career.

So the caveat. As well as drilling down to see what the University has to offer, it is worth DC thinking hard about what they want to get from University. Its not about "better" or "worse", it is about fit.

I think some students just don't do enough research and then complain about stuff that could have been found if they looked.

But that's where the Why I hate... videos / posts are also useful, as has been suggested - to gauge what might actually also be relevant to you (and for the entertainment value, of course). So the moaning about the en suite being too small? 99+% the answer is Oh ffs, how much time do you really need to spend in there? But for the strapping great rugby players (of either sex) looking on, the question might be,Okay, that really does look a bit lacking in room for manoeuvre, perhaps I'll check it out. I can seriously suggest that anyone's slightly taller / wider than average DC contemplating a room in a shiny new Unite Students block at their chosen university thinks about that one - 5ft 6, average build DD's was definitely a bit of a challenge and definitely not to be recommended for the claustrophobe.

@OnTheBenchOfDoom I use that saying at least once a day every day 🤣

Also, DS’s girlfriend has suggested Jack Edwards is DS’s celebrity crush, given how many of his videos ds has watched 😆