Medicine 2022 entry - How difficult is it really? *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[notmedicmum]

I couldn't find a thread for 2022 entrants to medicine - maybe I didn't look hard enough! DD is in Year 12 and has wanted to do medicine since Year 10. It's only this year that we realise the enormity of actually getting a place. Not only do you have to have brilliant grades, you must also have done work experience, volunteered (both difficult in the current situation), got excellent BMAT/UCAT scores. Oh, and you also must have cycled from Land's End to John O'Groats to raise money for charity or climbed Kilimanjaro or won the Nobel Peace prize or found a cure for cancer (joking about the last two). How competitive is it REALLY? I'm not sure about the value of the last apart from being used as a selection tool as the unis get so many qualified applicants - and showing enterprise and drive. Apparently this sort of thing is even more important this year as getting work experience is very hard this year. How does climbing a mountain make you a better doctor anyway? And what can normal students do to improve their chances of success??

You see Pleasestopthebunfight I can't quite get my head around this idea that Medicine is crazily competitive. High achieving DC with the attributes required to become a good doctor shouldn't be cowed into feeling that they're lucky to get a place literally anywhere. The competitiveness is massively over hyped on MN - that's not right for high achievers who also have the right personality to thrive as a doctor.

HostessTrolley yes I do wish certain posters wouldn't treat Oxford and Cambridge as the pantomime villain then there would be no onus to respond.

Surely the answer is in posts above. Very academic DC might consider the six year courses. They will learn more science and face more conceptual challenge.

Each course has its strengths. It is about fit. Schools often advise that some medical schools are a stretch, and that students should only include one or two. (Strangers son chose Oxford and Imperial), DD in contrast was not discouraged from applying to Bristol because she was not taking BMAT. At the time Bristol applicant to place ratio was 17:1 (its different now they started using UCAT), so was a stretch for other reasons. What her very academic school really did not want was over confident teenagers saying they would apply to Oxbridge/Imperial/UCL and then Bristol as a fall back. They knew that it could easily result in no offers - as it did with one of DDs friends.

But most students quite sensibly, want to get a place, and get a sound training, and recognise that they need to be strategic. If they are not likely to ace the BMAT applying to Oxbridge might be a waste of a line on the UCAS form. When all is said and done, most people don't know where their GP trained (mine trained in Dundee and is excellent) and even fewer know if their GP was offered one place or four.

@goodbyestranger you are talking about your opinion though? A medical school that in your opinion is less attractive geographically might be very attractive to someone else. Likewise less desirable extra curricular activities in your opinion might be great to someone else.

You can’t get your head around how competitive Medicine is? Just look at the statistics! Look at how many apply and how many places there are.

I know you are making the point that applicants should maximise their potential but they might fulfil their potential at one of your “dumbed down” choices.

Geography etc is clearly personal to the applicant. High tariff/ low tariff is objective and clearly there will be reasons why some universities are higher than others.

Yes that is exactly my point: I don't like seeing young people selling themselves short.

Surely MN is all about opinion?

And intelligent readers will take much if not most with a pinch of salt. That is the joy. We all have different experience which leads us to have different opinions.

It's not Oxford or Cambridge that I'd view as 'pantomine villains'.

My d chose not to apply there because, having done the research, she thought the course structure and lifestyle wouldn't be for her. That doesn't mean that she is doesn't have - how did you put it - a 'sharp mind and a scientific aptitude', it doesn't mean that she's inferior or unambitious - it means that she looked analytically at what was available, with a good awareness of her own desires and learning style, and made her choice - against the encouragement of her school. She spent a lot of time at Oxford pre-covid as her long term boyfriend is there - if she'd felt it was the right course for her, she could potentially have saved herself a good amount of time and money spent on the Oxford Tube...

Did she spend a lot of time in Oxford pre application though HostessTrolley - I can't recall everyone's personal stories but I had a vague idea that your DD and her bf were in the same school year. I could easily have got that wrong!

Also, this isn't about just your DD. And also again. your DD is at Imperial which is clearly a top end medical school, hardly the opposite end from the pantomine villains :)

Actually she did - we have family nearby, and obviously she discussed it all at length with the boyf who'd had oxford in mind for a fair few years and would have been very happy had she applied.

And what constitutes 'top' depends on your criteria - I think Imperial doesn't come out well on some of the league tables. It's about where is right for the individual, it's not just about tariffs and kudos, 'selling yourself short' is a bit of a strange way to see making an informed choice.

I'm really hoping that open days and offer holder days come back soon - even within doing the sensible thing of applying tactically to maximise invitation interviews, it must be really hard to make choices on applications, and decisions on offers in hand without being able to go and visit schools, meet the people, and pick up the 'vibe' of the places. Sometimes what looks like a great fit on paper just doesn't feel right in person - and vice versa!

I just thought I would glance at this thread as i am not interested in the rugby that most of the family is watching tonight. My info may be 20 years old however may still be relevant today.

I loved Human Biology but did not enjoy the other sciences. I only did Chemistry as it was a pre requisite for med school. I chose my medical school in London thinking of where I would have the most fun. I love medicine: learning about it, all my firms, even the hard jobs as a junior doctor, one of which caused me to collapse from exhaustion.

However I am a medic and not necessarily a scientist. I did do an intercalated BSc and got a first and a prize. Whilst I enjoyed studying the subject and the research, I did not enjoy the experiments.

From my good friend who was at Cambridge at the same time, the course was very scientific and she spent a lot of time learning things she didn't think was relevant. Those days you could change Unis for your clinical years and she came to London as did a lot of others from Oxbridge. But this option is not there anymore. I don't think I am wrong in thinking the medical courses at Oxbridge are very scientific.

The medical course is not for the faint hearted and it is a tough degree. I enjoyed having the separation between pre clinical and clinical as I felt it gave me a chance to be a carefree student before embarking on being a student doctor.

However I do believe all medical degrees are equal. This does not mean all doctors are equal - irrespective of where they have gone to medical school. I learnt how to be a doctor during my house jobs - it was a very steep learning curve. I am still learning now 20 years later. As with any job, if you have the ability, it is your character and your drive that determines how good you are at it. Are you compassionate? Able to communicate? Able to live with uncertainty? Have confidence in your abilities and not afraid to seek help? Able to accept you will make mistakes but learn from it so you don't repeat it?

Applying for medical school has changed so much and there are so many hurdles to overcome such as BMAT / UCAT and I never knew about applying strategically until a few days ago.

Wish all you and your DC the very best in applying for any medical school. This is the first step in a very long journey and having read the current year's medical thread, I think a place in any medical school is coveted.

Lovely post!

Great post @chopc

My lovely friend has offered DD the work experience as soon as her hospital will allow it. And another friend (GP) has offered. I love the fact that these busy doctors are so willing to help the next generation.

Student room website generally has lots of useful info.

How far have things changed in twenty years chopc? Perhaps not at all or perhaps a lot - I simply don't know. I'm sure the steepness of the learning curve after the clinical years is a constant, but are there far more medical schools now? Is the offer much more varied between schools than it was a generation ago?

Yes goodbye things have changed. When I applied in the early 90's- I could apply for five choices instead of four; only needed to get 3B's at AL: no UCAT or BMAT; have not heard of applying strategically. Yes the number of medical schools have gone up but I believe the number of applicants have gone up more

I think everyone from my school (grammar) who applied for medicine with the required grades secured at least one offer - and we didn't need to think of it as a two years process.

I was more wondering about the changes in the way medical degrees are delivered, as in PBL etc. Are these different models fairly new? You distinguish between preclinical and clinical and being a student, so your course was evidently traditional. I'm wondering if all courses were traditional when you did your degree.

Also, on the grades front, you need to factor in rampant grade inflation over the past 30 years. Those Bs are As in modern currency.

My use of the word offer might have confused. I meant curriculum offer.

Nope even back then there were a few universities offering fully integrated degrees but yes this wasn't the norm

Medical courses must have changed anyway as even career progression steps have changed eg there is no house year but you have two foundation years.

One thing that has changed from my cohort: it was extremely difficult to get a training number in the majority of fields and the competition was fierce. Even for a GP vocational training scheme. This, in addition to the poor working conditions and pay in the NHS led to a mass exodus of doctors from UK. This led to a gap at the top and even now there are many middle positions that are unfilled. So whilst it seems tougher to get into medical school now, the career progression will likely be a smoother ride.

I've had a quick look - around fifteen new medical schools have been established since you did your degree chopc.

@goodbyestranger sorry, I should have made it clear the PM was not from you. I always find our 'conversations' interesting and polite. We disagree, but nicely. Was very shocked by the message as it picks on me as a person and a mother. Really unpleasant.
Anyway, nowt so weird as folk.

Presumably it has been a case of "if you build it they will come" with regards additional med schools increasing overall demand.

The proportion of students applying for medicine from DD's school is much larger than the school I attended many years ago although we were given less freedom in our choices. Our headteacher was somewhat of a dictator and insisted on approving everyone's application personally. You had to be a very strong willed 17/18 year old (with supportive parents) to go against school's forceful advice in the matter back then.

Cheers mumsneedwine.

The nastiest side of MN . I hope you've reported the poster and you're OK @mumsneedwine

A year or two ago I got a series of really weird creepy messages from a very self-important poster on one of these medical threads and:

a) replied, telling them to stop being so weird and creepy
b) reported the PMs to MNHQ
c) Outed them in fairly gentle terms on the thread (I'm pretty sure I did this. If I didn't I certainly meant to but possibly the moment passed). Anyone sending an unpleasant PM richly deserves to be outed for doing so.

I think all medical schools have pre-clinical and clinical phases. At Manchester, which is one of the more PBL ones, they have 2 years mostly in medical school followed by 3 years based in a hospital. The integrated bit means that there are placements from early on, but still mainly academic in first 2 years.