Medicine 2021 - Part 3

[SATSmadness]

Hoping for interviews and offers all round, now and well into next year !

Ah mazarine I hope both got and ds are not too disappointed.

It's been a really difficult year for ALL applicants, and I totally disagree with SATSmadness comment that aiming 'lower' might have resulted in offers for some applicants. I really don't think there's any low aim when it comes to medicine, especially this year and it can come across as quite patronising to suggest some applicants aimed lowers than others. Every single medical school has increased its scoring thresholds and ucat/bmat thresholds. Then of course there's the interview itself which covers a wide range of topics, so all candidates were up against it this year.

Ds has an offer but he's really worried about unis not being fully open this year, and him being stuck in a flat with strangers miles from home. Reapplying for 2022 will be great if your ds wants the full uni experience. Grades in hand offers have been issued already this year so your ds will already be ahead next year. Also I agree with a previous poster about clearing, I think there'll be a lot more medicine places in clearing this year due to all the uncertainty. Your ds sounds resilient and tough, fingers crossed it all works out for him.

@Mazarineblue I’m really sorry to hear this - what a year, it’s so tough with the cut offs going through the roof.

It sounds like DS has a solid plan in place - and of course there is still Extra and Clearing

As you say, grades in hand, the chance to actually attend open days and visit universities, starting later when Covid restrictions will hopefully be behind us - there are lots of reasons to be positive.

If he works as a HCA or similar, that will give him so much experience. I read an article where a Dr was saying she can always tell which Medical Students have done this as their experiences really help them to do well.

Your DS sounds like he has a super attitude and I’m sure he’s set for success.

Aiming lower? Hmmm
I've had 30 years in medicine and this has never been a thing in people I know. DH was Cambridge medical degree and doctorate (now a doctorate examiner) and he doesn't recognise it either. Their are so so many opportunities in medicine - colleagues who are big in medical education locally and nationally, a couple big in private practice, others who rake in loads of money to fund research projects - nationally and further afield. Others who just go off unpaid to work in less fortunate parts of the world for a couple of years. Another I know enjoys doing media stuff and is v useful to their trust in various ways due to this. Colleagues who end up running vast services rather than clinical doctoring. All sorts of ways you can shine or plough your own furrow in medicine and I have never heard people looked down on due to medical school attended. I've had a junior doctor from oxbridge drive me up the wall from an operational point of view and another oxbridge one who dropped off a training scheme as shunted to a difficult geographical location for whatever reason. Certain medical schools do not necessarily lead to a guilded career trajectory by any means.

I wouldn't wish my previous post to be misunderstood or misinterpreted.

However, info sources available make it clear that applying tactically is important for applicants to maximise their chances of getting a place to study medicine at Uni, with the first hurdle being obtaining an interview. School UCAS advisers across DD's MAT also reiterated this to the aspiring medics and their parents/carers. GCSE grades/UCAT and BMAT scores/ predicted A Level or equivalent grades/personal statement/reference/work experience can carry differing weightings at the various Universities. It would be disingenuous not to acknowledge that candidates with average/below average UCAT/BMAT and/or a more mixed bag of GCSE grades or not predicted A*/A at A Level have generally applied for a different range of Universities and that this has previously proved a successful strategy for maximising candidates chances of heading off to study medicine on first application.

DD's currently acknowledged weakness, by comparison to her aspiring medic peers, is interviews. However, it has been indicated that the interviews are scored and form part of an overall decision making index. If, because her UCAT/BMAT, GCSEs and predicted grades were at the top end of the pool of fellow interviewees for a particular Uni, then even with a weaker interview score she might stand more chance of ranking above the cut off point as far as securing an offer is concerned, based on the relative scoring of her academic achievement/aptitude test results (assuming she doesn't present as an extreme introvert, sociopath or similar at interview).

I haven't a clue where any doctor whom my family have ever been treated by would have trained, nor would I care. Once qualified and practicing, being held in any esteem professionally would surely come down to reputation/results/published research. They need to put in the graft to create their own "gilded" career.

Lol at gilded not guilded - apologies.

Fwiw personally I think that schools do a disservice to pupils labelling them as oxbridge material. This happened with my DD1 below 10 yo. All the way through senior school too and she was also pooled and rejected. This was after 6 months of prep for half an hour interview. The process was disheartening to say the least. I know more than 5 who have taken gap years jot try oxbridge again with varying success and one lad who started at 3 universities and dropped out then finally going oxbridge at 4th attempt. It's a punishing way to spend such young years. The labelling over the years makes it so much harder for the ones who are rejected as some obviously are and I think schools should be more realistic about the possibility of rejection.
DD2 said that after the schools she'd been to, she just wanted to be with normal people for once and I breathed a sigh of relief 😅

@SATSmadness it looks like you meant that people should have been even more strategic this year, so you did not really mean aim lower.

My DS, like your DD, was very strong on most of his results, but rubbish at interviews first time round. I think I discussed on last years thread the issue that people talk about applying to your strengths, and there is a bit of awareness of the med schools which use test scores post interview, but they do not talk so much of offer to interview ratios. DS's best interview in the first cycle was at Leeds, where he was in the top 60%, but they only made offers to the top 55%. I think Newcastle and Sheffield made offers to the top 80% or so, particularly if you took account of the people on the Sheffield reserve list for whom an offer came by the end of the cycle (it was all of the ones without another offer for 2019 entry).

There is a great resource which I have shared many times which was produced by Nexttime from TSR of all the ratios at the medical schools, but it is also very worthwhile trawling through the FOIs before making the final decisions about where to apply. If DS had applied to St Andrews first time round, 85% of the RUK applicants got an offer in 2019, so he would very likely have got in. He had dismissed it because his stats were very strong so he had lots of options and he did not like the idea of moving mid degree, but now he sees that as one of the good things about it. But he would not have got together with his very lovely girlfriend!

Here is Nexttime's excellent table - public.tableau.com/profile/alec6322#!/vizhome/UKmedicalschoolapplicationratios2017-19/DomesticApplicanttoOfferRatio

So sorry @Mazarineblue

I hope your DS finds something really worth while to do next year and can face the selection process with both grades and experience in hand.

Would he try BMAT as well as UCAT next year?

Things I have known peoples do before in an extra year include St John's Ambulance, although that seems much easier if you live in a city from when I was Googling it.

@Mazarineblue sorry to hear your news, but there is a lot of useful advice on here, and it sounds like your DS is going about things in a practical and forward-thinking manner.
Nobody could have predicted the huge increase in scores across the board, and unfortunately I feel there will be many dc doing exactly the same next year.
It will be end of March/April before dd hears, so it is an anxious wait, whilst hoping for the best and preparing for the worst. I must admit, I have been secretly looking up other med school info pages just in case, but trying to stay positive in front of her. I like being able to make plans, so this not knowing business is so hard!

The term 'aiming low' is actually patronising and insulting.

There is no aiming low for medicine, it's simply not possible, whatever grades your dc has they will be on par with the medicine cohort. Applying strategically is probably what you should be saying.

Really sorry to hear your news @Mazarineblue. The goalposts have moved so much this year. Your DS sounds mature and resilient and it's great that he is putting plans in place already. He will most probably look back on this setback and say that it made him a better, more-rounded doctor but it still must be tough for you and for him now.

There will be many disappointed DC this year. It will probably be at least another month before my DS hears back from his choices and I too am hoping for the best but also mentally preparing for the worst. Nothing is a given this year.

@WithIcePlease

It's also a good thing for an Oxbridge candidate to have a parent not over-invested in the whole notion despite the school's leanings/labelling. I think Medicine makes it easier on the mind for those for whom it's a "no" from Oxford/Cambridge too, given that the aim is possibly seen as "to qualify as a doctor", rather than "to get a degree from Oxford/Cambridge". Factor in that they're looking at 6 years instead of 3/4 and delaying the start of the journey by another year (by re-applying for Oxbridge) may well seem less attractive to many aspiring medics than it does to some non-medicine applicants.

Coming at this from a different pathway to your DD, being at a large mixed ability comp I can say that post GCSE, DD was mightily pleased to lose the part of the "normal" element who, despite streaming/setting etc. sadly managed to disrupt learning for others in numerous ways. They almost all decided to study elsewhere from that point or didn't make the grades for entry to 6th Form.

Yes, and yet the UCAS advisers used the term "aim high" when referring to the 4 choices for some candidates, DD included, but then they do like their stats to look good in the 6th Form prospectus.

I concur that the phrasing could perhaps have been "she should not have aimed so high if she was to maximise her chances of securing an offer this year" if there was the risk of causing offence but I guess I take my lead from DD and her fellow aspiring medics who reckon that between them they cover pretty much all UK med school Universities (with overlaps naturally) and conversations are very realistic between them without anyone being offended. There is banter naturally about differing starting points but they're all just trying to achieve their aim of a place at Uni to study medicine and they very much want everyone to get there, wherever there is likely to be.

The UCAS advisors are ignorant of how medicine works if they think that "aiming high" is a thing, it is not!

Fine to choose for course style, location, application strengths, but anybody who thinks one medicine degree is better than another should reconsider. GANFYD sometimes shares charts of preparedness for FY1 and the "prestigious" ones do badly. Some people get offers from Oxbridge but would not get an interview at Keele.

Coming out of the 6 year process into F1 is a whole different ballgame as friends have recounted ! Some of the tales .... Thank god for experienced nursing staff maintaining continuity.

@SATSmadness Black Wednesday is a thing. Everyone starts new jobs on the same day. Not a v good idea !!!

I think my DS's school handles the medical application process well. The school has a high Oxbridge hit rate across subjects each year but it's certainly not considered to be the holy grail and it is recognised that there are certain subjects that have equal (and for some other subjects better) centres of excellence elsewhere. They have a significant number of students go on to study medicine each year across a whole range of medical schools. They tell them very clearly from early on to ignore any preconceived ideas of Universities’ overall rankings and look at the specifics of their medical schools and course structures as it was all about looking for the right fit for the individual, not any one being better than another. They tell them to keep sight of their aspirations, meaning their own favoured choices NOT any particular University but also to be pragmatic and balance that with strategic application. They also stress that a fixation on any one option is not healthy, especially given the vagaries of Med School applications. There are DC in years above my DS who have got single offers from Oxbridge and no other offers. Some DC we know have rejected Oxbridge places for other medical schools. It's really no big deal what med school the DC go to as long as it suits them as individuals.

I think the problem here is the term "aim high". Can I suggest that be replaced with "aim for medical schools with a more competitive application process". Some universities, in many cases due to geography (location, location, location), have a much higher ratio of applicants to places, which means more of those applicants will be rejected. If you aim your four choices at those, you have a greater chance of being rejected. Within that, of course, is that some reject more pre-interview, and some reject more post interview, and if interview is a weakness, and other aspects are strong, then aiming at those who reject more pre-interview makes sense, while if you are strong at interviews, but weaker elsewhere, then the other makes sense. But there are definitely some where the odds of that coverted place are better than others, and some where you are competing against a far bigger field of candidates.

There are absolutely no guarantees of getting a place on a Medicine course but I do think that it is possible to maximise the chance. DD has great GCSE grades, a decent UCAT score and above the 'required' predicted grades and 2 weeks of relevant work experience. However, despite these stats she could work out that she wouldn't be interviewd at four of her choices (B'ham, Bristol and Nottingham and Exeter) through looking at previous years' data.

Obviously, all the research in the world doesn't help when UCAT cut offs are higher this year than they've ever been and places that guaranteed an interview if your UCAT score was over 2400 move the goal posts (looking at you, Plymouth!). However, DD has secured 2 interviews when some others at her school haven't secured any. These are pupils who have always achieved their goals and possibly didn't realise the need to be tactical with application. The school didn't offer any advice on the need to be tactical.

Applying with grades in hand make you a more attractive candidate so DD will look at reapplying next year if she's not offered a place this year and secures the grades.

Absolutely @Card1gan every advisor who knows what they are talking about stress the importance of being strategic in the way you apply. Well done to your DD for navigating that tricky path for the first stage.

We have 2 at school with much lower academics than the others. Both have offers as applied strategically. The one who refused to listen and only applied to ones that required a v high UCAT (which he didn't have) has none. Well done to everyone with offers so far. Boy they are late this year !

@mumsneedwine That must be so frustrating for the UCAS adviser staff.

Understandable if they had achieved a disappointing BMAT score in November, having already submitted their choices (including a BMAT Uni) by the early entry deadline or if they were caught out by the higher UCAT cut off points applied by various Universities this year, but to risk not getting an interview by disregarding advice.........

I was very surprised early on in the process by how different the criteria were for different medical schools but it really helped narrow the choice.
I must say, the Exeter selection based on predicted grades for interview rankings seemed a very odd way to go about it. I quickly realised keele was a non starter for DD. Ditto Birmingham. Once she had decided against BMAT I was really relieved esp as I have said previously on here, I have real reservations about her getting an A in one of her subjects and this meant she could concentrate on school work after UCAT
I don't remember where I read about the small number of RUK places in Scotland- possibly this thread last year? - but I was shocked at how few. It must have been some sort of general discussion tho as DD no interest in going there.
Her boyf has 5 offers now - it's dispiriting the med ones take so long.

Does anyone know if these later offers have any impact on choices of accommodation at uni's? Won't some have allocated a lot of rooms before we even hear?

I agree about really knowing how to apply to your strengths. Keele was never on our radar but after learning that they interview solely on the R&R, we knew that DD would stand an excellent chance of getting one. After calculating scores for Birmingham, we knew that wasn’t a wise choice. They don’t tell you this stuff on the internet so Mumsnet and TSR have really been saviours on that front.

As for accommodation, yes I do think some might end up not getting their preferred choice. I know if DD gets an offer for her 1st choice and firms it, she can apply for accommodation immediately and she’ll get one of her choices.

Apologies if any of the above is utter rabble, I’m rushing out the door to get DD from work.

DD's applications were definitely strategic - not wanting to do the BMAT and not doing Biology certainly decreased the options to begin with, but still needed a lot of research by DD and DH to decide on the best places to apply. Good (but not outstanding) GCSE's, an above average (but again not outstanding) UCAT and predicted A's (but no A*) - has had 3 interviews so far and was offered interview at the 4th one (finally!) today. So successful in terms of securing interviews, but no offers yet .... expecting to need fingers firmly crossed until at least end of March!