Oxbridge Aspirants 2021-New Thread 4

[Baaaahhhhh]

And we are off:

Thread 3 link: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/higher_education/4070531-Oxbridge-Aspirants-2021-New-Thread-3

*@Baaaahhhhh

Waiting for economics here

Always an interesting discussion, the contextualisation issue. I suppose the only way to look at it is, if you had no skin in the game ie no children applying, how would you design a fair system? If the tutors are amazing at spotting potential maybe it's a guaranteed interview for all 'widening participation' candidates, as some employers do for those who are under represented in the organisation.

Regrettably there are probably far more dc who would benefit from and thrive at Oxbridge, than there are places.

Interested in goodbyestranger's note above that despite the angst and effort, all of this merely smooths the playing field slightly rather than levelling it.

Interested in goodbyestranger's note above that despite the angst and effort, all of this merely smooths the playing field slightly rather than levelling it.

I would absolutely agree with this.

If a child is

• From an under-represented minority group
• From a low income family
• Has no family history of attending university
• Lives in sub-standard housing
• Lives in a city a long way geographically and in terms of 'feel' from O + C
• From a school with a very challenging catchment, with lack of continuity of staffing

then contextualising ONLY for the school is barely going to touch the sides in terms of achieving anything like fair representation.

The difficulty is - and I remember mention of this in that very interesting article about the Cambridge application process - to what extent the 'damage has been done', with it being unfair to the student to admit someone with huge gaps in their education in comparison to their peers.

@cantkeepawayforever - very good point- I agree, that stayed with me from that article- the risk that admitting the student who had sadly already fallen far behind would lead to them 'drowning' and not being able to keep up with the workload.

LMH runs a foundation year to address these very issues. Would be great to see this expanded to more colleges.

www.lmh.ox.ac.uk/prospective-students/foundation-year

Just checking in. Congratulations to all those with interviews.
No news for dd from Oxford- Mfl and English lit. There are only 23 remaining places divided between languages - 3 already allocated from deferrals. I think only 2 places for dds chosen course, of which could have already have been allocated. I guess she'll hear tomorrow.

Crikey @fabtasticmrpox scarily small numbers- but I suppose in the context of applications they all are. Best of luck to your DD.

@LaundryFairy that looks like an excellent programme!

BilberryBaggins - we also went to the Oxford open day, and heard the same thing. it was not so much about the criteria. It is more about the mindset. At his comprehensive, DS was one of the few aiming high, and aiming high seems to be defined by everybody as "oxbridge". The school does a trip in year 9 to Cambridge, and they do some outreach, and it is supposed to inspire the brightest to have a go. In many ways he feels he aimed high by leaving the comprehensive and going to this elite school for sixth form (although there was boy in the year above who did that as well, which probably inspired him). It was very DS driven, not by us at all, he decided around about year 9 that he had had enough of the comprehensive, and worked his socks off to get himself elsewhere. But being at the sixth form, it took him a while to find his feet, and while I think it is fair to say that he is in the top third of the class now, is my impression, from the grades he is coming home with on tests, it is very different to feeling yourself one of a handful. Its the psychology of the thing, not what Oxford might do as part of their entrance criteria.

Sorry to derail - any of you folk have any insight on philosophy degrees? Started another thread in this topic for dd but yet to have any replies

And seeing various of the rejections of his peers, including the one that completely shocked him, has made him very glad he didn't put himself forward. He feels he didn't need this kind of pressure.

Have name-changed for this as mention of school results could be outing.
@bimkom I remember your ds and your hope that he would get into his present school (from the gcse 2019 thread) .Your ds will still possibly be due to have some contextual offers from other universities based on the school that he did his gcses though?

Dd went to a really poorly performing local state school ( less than 30% got 9-5 maths and English) . Afaik no one has ever gone to Oxbridge from there and few even go on to any university. She’s now at another school with (relatively) much higher results (over 60% 9-5 maths and English) .This school is one which she had no hope of getting into in year 7. I presume her gcse results have been looked at in the context that she took them when offering her an interview .
Whenever I think about the value of contextualisation, I remember Dd coming home at the beginning of yr 12 and saying “ mum.. they actually teach you stuff there! “ The level of disruption at her previous school was unbelievable.

@fabtasticmrpox - how do you know those figures? Is there somewhere which states how many places are available - or already taken (gulp)?

I've also heard of non-oxbridge medical schools that have the dilemma of students admitted through widening access programmes being much more likely to struggle with the course than those from similar backgrounds who manage to get in under normal criteria. Whilst universities can work with outreach to contact potential applicants and raise aspirations, there is only so much they can do to compensate for poverty of expectations and aspirations earlier on and the disrupted classroom environments some children encounter.

Personally I think the 11+ system has a lot going for it, but it can only work when there is enough funding to make sure that the schools non-grammar students go to, can really target and enrich the education of their students too. And it is really important to have a bit of flexibility in the system so that there can be some movement between school types.

I'm also very concerned about students doing GCSEs this year, that many will have had such a disrupted learning experience that they may not have the foundation to go onto the success they should have achieved with A levels under normal circumstances. But short of reconfiguring things to allow and encourage repeating yr 11 next year I have no idea how this can be solved. And of course those students who have had decent continuity of education (my youngest being one of them) deserve to have their achievements properly recognised too.

@cantkeepawayforever

I recall that article too and the sad thought that although it would be nice to take certain disadvantaged students, the academic gap for some would put them under such pressure that it could perhaps be to their detriment instead of the leg up they need. Clearly they needed the leg up much earlier in their academic life.

A government funded foundation year would perhaps be the solution but given the eventual pandemic bill, unlikely to be expanded beyond any such option already available for the foreseeable future.

@forthispost - and that is why it varies so much. There were some teachers at his comprehensive that really did not "teach you stuff", but as he got more able to choose, he avoided those subjects - and there were some very good teachers (his maths teacher, for example, can easily hold his own with any at the private school). It is a good comprehensive (and possibly an outstanding comprehensive). But there were a lot of kids who didn't want to learn, or couldn't see the point, or who enjoyed being disruptive, or genuinely found the material challenging or all of the above, and that made class not the easiest to be in. DS was the kid asking the teachers to mark extra essays he did, becuase he rightly judged that he wasn't getting enough, which the teachers were, by and large, very happy to do (although some of them weren't, but probably the majority were), but the teachers didn't set them to the class, as there was a limit to what you can do when kids can't or don't want to do even the lesser amount required. And the school does a lot better than your DD's comprehensive, no question. And in some ways when you have a handful that are really keen to learn, maybe you encourage them in ways you wouldn't if you had an entire class like that. That is why it is so tricky. But DS is so much happier in a class where the class is bright and wants to do well, which is the main thing for him.

Slightly off topic. So much assumes in top performing schools the teaching is much better. Sadly Dd on a bursary at a top school has had some rubbish teachers at what is a v expensive school. There is an assumption teaching is superior but in reality teachers do not need to meet the same criteria as state school teachers and I can honestly say some of the teaching has been shocking. She spent a lot of time teaching herself part of the curriculum, the school rides on its reputation and so students don’t want to achieve anything but top scores.I’m not saying contextualising is unfair but there is so much more behind the grades.

@IrmaFayLear. I assume from the below which someone posted recently. Feel rather remiss that I hadn’t pinged it earlier.

www.ox.ac.uk/about/facts-and-figures/admissions-statistics/undergraduate-students/current/deferrals

[quote IrmaFayLear]@fabtasticmrpox - how do you know those figures? Is there somewhere which states how many places are available - or already taken (gulp)?[/quote]
I saw a link somewhere - possibly this thread.

Thanks! I think I had seen that, but not scrolled down to see each college’s deferrals. Obviously it’s a bit college and course dependent and bad luck if you picked one that had over-offered and had to honour excess applicants.

Presumably they will be being a bit less offer happy this year, given the news that pupils may be given the content of A Levels in advance and they will be marked more leniently (thus enabling more people to meet standard offer). Cambridge may have to offer everyone 3A*s to try to weed people out.

I think the key thing universities all need to know is whether the grade distribution this year is going to be pegged to 2020 or 2019, a pint which seems in the press to be in some doubt.

That’s what I don’t understand about calls for universities to reduce their required grades - even if as a cohort the children do in absolute terms less well, surely it all depends on where the the boundaries are set - I simply don’t find it plausible that such group performance would be allowed to provide a massive dip in grades. The boundaries will be set to achieve a target.

So the question is, will the target be 2019 type grades or 2020 type grades? And how can the universities calibrate their offers until they know?

Getting very worried about the GCSE contextualisation issue.

Dd was at a super selective grammar for GCSE. She got 11 GCSEs, nine of which were 8/9. But I imagine there were many students who got a straight run of 9s which would mean she perfumed worse. Not good news for Oxford entry.

*perfomed!

I personally think they should drop their offers, including Oxbridge, for this year, because the preparation time has been so unevenly disrupted, a student might easily drop a grade through no fault of their own, if they've missed a lot of school. If the A Level grades are unreliable, then universities need to rely on them less, make fewer offers and show more clemency.