University offers after results

[Bowbridge]

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/nov/13/vice-chancellors-back-university-offers-going-out-after-a-level-results?scrlybrkr=d231436b

This is long overdue in my opinion. Most universities don't read the personal statement and base their offers purely on grades. This will save schools, teachers and students so much time in the Autumn term. In many other countries they base offers on grades achieved and a 400 word motivational statement. The UK should follow suit. Thoughts?

I agree that in theory it could greatly simplify the process and make it a lot fairer. As a university worker my main concern is the turnaround time needed to process everything after results come in.

At the moment our admissions team work throughout the year and are well trained as permanent employees. What would they do the rest of the year and who would be employed during the summer to do this important work?

I think it's a great idea. Cash buyers rather than credit! Presume uni years would start in January as a result.

It could start in October, like Oxbridge.

At least students would be basing their university course choice on the whole of their 6th form experience rather predominantly Y12. My Dc's love for their A level subjects changed a lot in Y13 and they regretted their initial university course choice and reapplied after results.

That’s how it already works in Ireland, or it did when I applied for trinity —and didn’t get in — many many many years ago

I’m finding the assertion that post results will ensure disadvantaged students go to “better” aspirational universities a bit difficult to understand. From what I have read, some of these students prefer to stay nearer to home. For all sorts of reasons. Non aspirational parents will still have their say and dc will still listen to them. Dc still might take the wrong A levels for competitive courses and if they are not encouraged to apply to a top university by anyone, why would they? We also know disadvantaged students often prefer vocational courses. The local non aspirational university choice might well satisfy this preference.

If these students don’t get the grades, they still won’t apply to the more aspirational universities. So what will change? Who will persuade these students to go elsewhere if it’s not what they want? They might just be happy with their grades and their own ideas.

Therefore I’m not sure this will work for disadvantaged students in great numbers because if a course is AAA, but they have AAB, they might not apply believing they won’t get in. In the former system they might have got in if the course was under subscribed and the school had said they were an AAA student. So how is the new system better.? I think it giving the illusion of improvement but in reality it’s moving the deckchairs around a bit.

@PresentingPercy There is a lot of statistical data that shows that disadvantaged students (including students from poorer performing schools and black students) are more likely to have their grades underpredicted than their more advantaged counterparts.

So in your hypothetical case of the disadvantaged student who eventually got AAB, they wouldn't have got on to the AAA course anyway because their school would not have predicted them AAA, it would have predicted them ABB or even BBB.

There are a lot of reasons why someone from a disadvantaged background might end up at a 'less aspirational' university than their grades would allow. This move is to try to address one of those reasons.

But surely it would make more sense to keep the ones of the current UCAS system, but just get rid of the giant end of year exam?

Why not have continual ( counted) assessments so that the predicted grade is based on actual assessed results.

I could never understand why many undergrad,masters and PhD achievement is based on continuous work, but GCSE and A level s are based do much on single exams.

I also struggle to see how the time frames would work. I think it could lead to a very stressful 6 months for students - doing A levels, and then having to pick universities and apply with all that sense of unknown of their future hanging over them.
I understand the reasons behind it, though not totally sure it is a good overall answer to the problems. Certainly for one of my daughters, knowing she had an offer from a uni she loved, and needing to get the grades to get in was a great motivator to work harder than she otherwise would have! She found the whole choosing a uni andapplying very stressful, and it was a relief that was well out of the way before the stress of actual A levels.

Re wanting a local university, for whatever reason - isn't one of the things that our system is often criticised for, the fact that part of the 'whole university package' iis moving miles away from home to live with a bunch of strangers, rather than just going to your local university and staying with mum and dad, like they do in...(names one of the places where they don't do stupid things like apply in advance of achieved grades)?

In some places, as well (France?), there seems to be the tradition in at least some of their universities of accepting practically anyone to start, but then weeding out a huge number at the end of first year. Perhaps we could adopt that one, as well, because there must be some merit in it - is it not necessarily the ones who enter with lower prior achievement who find themselves not making the grade at the end of the year, I wonder?

Many schools tell their pupils that ‘a degree is a degree’. The implication of this is that it doesn’t matter which uni you attend. Less knowledgeable parents and pupils believe this and choose unis based on factors other than league tables. In many cases the schools are doing a disservice in this way.

The system is criticised when able students don’t aim high. “Local” in my post during mean Oxbridge. It meant low ranking with poorer employment outcomes. I meant where students don’t research the best courses but just take the local one that could well have poor outcomes. Law is a classic example of this.

I’m not entirely sure the whole system needs changing because teachers predict low grades for disadvantaged pupils. I don’t necessarily doubt the research but surely it’s the teachers who need to up their game?

This system does mean others will lose their motivation. DC interviewed were not enthusiastic. It also adds pressure after the results come out. Just a big scramble will ensue and lots of dc will be disappointed. How will universities interview? Yes. Some do. Will some still require early applications?

I’m assuming that if this goes ahead, one of the consequences will be that the entry requirements for many courses will go down - given that so many students are accepted with dropped grades after results day.

The number of places & applicants won’t change because of this.

I do think that still requiring personal statements & interviews should be seriously reviewed. It just adds an extra layer of stress, especially for less confident students and would reduce the absolute fairness of a system that purely allocates places based on exam results.

However if they move to such a system where places are allocated by a computer programme based on actual results, I bet it will take many years to get it up and running.

I totally agree jeanne16. It’s the schools that need better interventions to ensure dc aim high when the odds are stacked against them. Eg caring for parents, not wanting to leave home etc.

Well we all know computer programs will be useless don’t we? All the arguments about the computer chucking out great kids that deserve a place!!!

I do think the PS is one piece of evidence that actually should be read and considered. These young people are applying for a degree. Why they want to do it is important. Lowering required A levels surely means more apply and how do you decide who gets in if lots have the required A levels? Popular courses will still be oversubscribed with qualified dc. So surely this system cannot guarantee success for every applicant?

How are the disadvantaged pupils going to be persuaded to apply after A levels? What will change? It’s not all about predicted grades for them. It about not leaving friends, being told all universities are good, not having the merits of top courses explained to them and generally poor advice from school and parents alike. How will this be addressed post A level? It’s still a huge issue.

In the Irish system students apply in the January before & list their courses in order of preference. It’s a points based system & obviously the more popular a course is, the higher the points. If you get the points for your first choice, you get in, otherwise you will get one of your other choices.

I’m wary of saying the Irish or Australian system could be adapted for the UK because the populations are much smaller and therefore so are number of applicants each year.

Re personal statements, it’s become pretty clear over the years that these are not looked at all in many cases.

Any markers on here? Is August 15th the absolute earliest that results can be released with the exams at their current dates?

If so, how long do we need to give students to:

• digest their results
• research courses that might accept their grades
• visit a few
• submit the form

And the universities to:

• read the PSs
• interview a short list
• send out offers

Could all that happen by September 15? And then get the first years to arrive a week or so later?

Many universities give offers within 24 hrs of receipt of the UCAS form. Some students have all 5 offers within a few days of submitting the UCAS.

Most students go to open days prior to applying (June-July, post A levels would be an ideal time, or Nov/Feb before A levels). Oxbridge interview over 2-3 days and the achieved grades would determine who gets an interview along with a short motivational statement.

I assume grades required would go down for most courses (Oxbridge would probably go up). However, with inflated CAGs in 2020 will probably lead to grade boundaries changing for 2021 and 2022... so more students being awarded A stars and As. Will 'A star star' be the next change to grading?

Less knowledgeable parents and pupils believe this and choose unis based on factors other than league tables.

Less knowledgeable parents try to pick universities based solely on league tables, maybe...

Hopefully, the actual applicant looks at which course, at which university, best meets their own needs and interests.

But hang on, if we’re saying that the problem is that Little Johnny is being under predicted by his low achieving school, he will have spent all year being told he’ll probably get BBB and researched Universities with a tariff of BBB. When he wakes up on 13th of August and gets his AAA, he will have to start again from scratch.

Also, if I run a History course with 200 places and I set my tariff at AAA, how do I sort out my 400 applicants with AAA? Do I use their personal statement (possibly disadvantaging Little Johnny again) or do I look at the actual percentages within the band and just take the A grades with 82% and not the A grades with 81%?

Will students get multiple offers like the current system?

It they do, offer all 400 with AAA and hopefully 200 will come, in all likelihood it might be 80 or 380.

So it might need to be like a CAF where you rank your universities and once you have an offer from your highest choice that is your firm accepted. If none of your 5 give you an offer, clearing choices are offered. At the moment some people get a university clearing offer in September and still start in late September

It is an interesting problem universities and the government will have to sort through. Will Scottish universities follow suit... or jump in first!?

It they do, offer all 400 with AAA and hopefully 200 will come, in all likelihood it might be 80 or 380.

Except in the first few years of the system you won't know the proportion of offerees who woul accept - so you could be squeezing 400 into a lecture theatre for 200!

And everyone here knows about head teachers insisting you must put their school first to get an offer - same thing will happen. Will unis know where their applicants ranked them?

What about courses that audition or interview or have entrance tests?

As @KingscoteStaff says, if Jonny's teachers tell him he's a B grade kid at the beginning of year 13 (same time as when he'd he applying under the current system), then he's spending time and energy applying to B grade places.

Don't forget even if predicted grades don't go on the application, kids still know what level they're working at. For a lot, having a slightly ambitious offer is just the kick up the bum they need.

If B grade Jonny ends up with As, the current system still allows him to apply for an A grade place.

I'm struggling to see what the problem they are trying to overcome is - the current system places 80% of applicants at their firm choice, and another 15+% at their insurance. It ain't broke! Disadvantaged kids will still be disadvantaged. They'll still be told 'Scumsville Poly-Uni' down the road would be a good fit for you. They'll still be surrounded by teachers and family and friends who don't have strong ambitions for them. They'll still be stuck looking after their younger siblings. They'll still be stuck with a slow second hand laptop. They'll still be stuck dealing with mum's MH crises. The uni admissions process isn't the problem.

Totally agree titchy and KingscoteStaff. This is a sledgehammer to crack a walnut and it won’t because of all the other factors involved. Top class advice to all pupils and teachers knowing the time of day is what’s needed. Personal statements are often a deciding factor in popular courses with lots of well qualified applicants. If this disadvantaged disadvantaged students, again it’s schools that need to up their game! Or a decent careers service. Nothing will change unless advice is spot on!

I do think the ex polys are definitely better than many newer universities.

I’m not sure I agree that final grades are the most accurate representation of what a student can do though. I was predicted A A A in my exams, got full marks in all my course work. I had the worlds worst period during three of my exams and a seizure just before the fourth one. I still did alright, but no where near as well as I could have done. University still accepted me and now I’m on track for a first. I just wouldn’t have applied if it was all based on my final grades.

Perhaps bring back AS levels and offer based on them - similar to the way Scotland does with Highers?